Haggling needs a redesign, or better feedback on how it works.

[Droolguy]

I have been experimenting with the haggling system and it is extremely unintuitive.

It is really immersion breaking that I can offer at +4 ticks from their price (since it's not money based but clicks on a slider based, assuming it's directly related to a % increase of some kind?) and they counter offer with +1 ticks from their original price.

The disposition wheel goes to just a little below half full.

So, offer +4 get +1 for less than half disposition hit.

Bring offer down by 1 tick, resulting in only +2 from their current offer, -1 from my original offer.

They immediately end the transaction with a failed haggle despite the offer being LESS than the offer that netted LESS than half a disposition wheel.

Somehow less than half plus less than half equals a whole for failure in this system.

Also, I have had them literally just refuse to change the price several times, twice in a row when I attempted a +1 on their offer. They just keep saying to give them a little more (despite a little more being their offer on the last round of trading since you can only move in ticks).

[Nox]

Not to discount your frustration but I found it to be intuitive.

The amount you can haggle with them is actually a countdown from how much they like you. That's the "Coin" you are spending - good faith.

If someone hates you, you'll never get to haggle.

[Droolguy]

That is extremely vague, are you sure you really understand how it works?

Like what is the relationship between the price changes and the total amount of grochen?

Did you notice that things under a certain threshold are negotiated in half groch while some are whole groch a tick (and so on, related to the total amount for the trade).

The ticks are not uniform either, I have had ones where I need to add +15 ticks to an offer, and I have had trades where +1 tick resulted in a bigger change (both in groch as well as on the bar) than the entire +15 offer.

[Hanekem]

Droolguy eredeti hozzászólása:

That is extremely vague, are you sure you really understand how it works?

Like what is the relationship between the price changes and the total amount of grochen?

Did you notice that things under a certain threshold are negotiated in half groch while some are whole groch a tick (and so on, related to the total amount for the trade).

The ticks are not uniform either, I have had ones where I need to add +15 ticks to an offer, and I have had trades where +1 tick resulted in a bigger change (both in groch as well as on the bar) than the entire +15 offer.

I am going to second Nox, the system is easy, it doesn't provide you detailed info because you are dealing with people not with stats.
Have you ever haggled? honest question

[accent]

Huh. I feel it's about as simple as it can reasonably be. You're thinking about it too much. I just roleplay it, offer a somewhat smaller amount than asked and gauge their reaction and then raise a bit until you meet them at some point. It seems to be designed for role play, not for optimizing your money usage like it's some professional esports.

[PlevisVesel]

What pissed me off about the haggling is that you get the same amount of relationship increase if you tip someone 1 groshen or 1000 groshen.
How the hell does that make any sense?

[Droolguy]

Hanekem eredeti hozzászólása:

...dealing with people not with stats...

No, you are dealing with a computer, and therefore haggling against stats.

Human simulation doesn't exist, and it certainly wouln't be based on a wheel and a slider.

That means that there 100% has to be a way to beat the minigame or at least play it.

Just accepting the system because your "haggling with a person" is assinine.

My experience in real life is irrelevant to this discussion as this is a game, at best it has no bearing on the discussion and at worst you will use it as a straw man fallacy.

[Hanekem]

Droolguy eredeti hozzászólása:

Hanekem eredeti hozzászólása:

...dealing with people not with stats...

No, you are dealing with a computer, and therefore haggling against stats.

Human simulation doesn't exist, and it certainly wouln't be based on a wheel and a slider.

That means that there 100% has to be a way to beat the minigame or at least play it.

Just accepting the system because your "haggling with a person" is assinine.

My experience in real life is irrelevant to this discussion as this is a game, at best it has no bearing on the discussion and at worst you will use it as a straw man fallacy.

Sadly, what you suggest is poor game design, at least for this game. or rather luckly. Honeslty, there might be good ways to do so, if we had access to the logic, it is best not to let the player access to the logic because that way the player can learn slowly at his or her own pace.
Honestly? you sound like the tipical minmaxer... that is no compliment

[Tempered]

Haggling is one of the things I think this game has done better than any previous game I've played. It is simple and intuitive. You can pay more for a reputation boost or you can pay less depending on your reputation with the merchant.
The best strategy is to pay more for minor purchases all the time, then when you want to make a really big purchase like expensive armor, you go for the biggest discount you can get.
I do agree that you should be able to get a bigger rep boost for higher overpayment, but it should be capped at some point.

[PlevisVesel]

Tempered eredeti hozzászólása:

Haggling is one of the things I think this game has done better than any previous game I've played. It is simple and intuitive. You can pay more for a reputation boost or you can pay less depending on your reputation with the merchant.
The best strategy is to pay more for minor purchases all the time, then when you want to make a really big purchase like expensive armor, you go for the biggest discount you can get.

You get a reputation boost for selling on a lower price than the offer of the merchant as well.
You can get all the merchants to be your friends if you sell them rotten food for less than they ask, which is hilariously stupid.
Here have this rotten hare meat at 0.1 less groshen than you asked for.
WELL NOW, THAT'S VERY KIND OF YOU
Uhm yeah sure buddy

[Droolguy]

Hanekem eredeti hozzászólása:

Droolguy eredeti hozzászólása:

No, you are dealing with a computer, and therefore haggling against stats.

Human simulation doesn't exist, and it certainly wouln't be based on a wheel and a slider.

That means that there 100% has to be a way to beat the minigame or at least play it.

Just accepting the system because your "haggling with a person" is assinine.

My experience in real life is irrelevant to this discussion as this is a game, at best it has no bearing on the discussion and at worst you will use it as a straw man fallacy.

Sadly, what you suggest is poor game design, at least for this game. or rather luckly. Honeslty, there might be good ways to do so, if we had access to the logic, it is best not to let the player access to the logic because that way the player can learn slowly at his or her own pace.
Honestly? you sound like the tipical minmaxer... that is no compliment

Actually, that's good game design, that is how games function.

All of them, including this one, just because you bury your head in the sand doesn't make it any different.

There is a system at work, a minigame, which in and of itself is supposed to be beatable and enjoyable or it wouldn't be in the game at all.

The only way a game can be enjoyable is if it has concrete rules, if I have to dredge those up through repeated testing myself then so be it, but the system in place currently seems to have moving goalposts.

I am just trying to find out what those rules are, the fact that you even brought up minmaxing as if creating something to execute a specific task is somehow disdainable tells me you probably shouldn't be in this conversation in the first place because I doubt you have the necessary drive to "win" to even understand where I am coming from.

[Nox]

You're over thinking this. Just push your offer, and try not to piss off the dude you're haggling with. The happy face on the coin is your guide.

That's all I can say.

Also like a real haggling session, you have to gently tug them down to a better offer. How you do that is the art part of it.

If you're failing at it, and I'm succeeding at it and you blame the game I doubt you're going to improve.

[Droolguy]

I actually succeed *nearly* every single time now, but I am attempting to find the razors edge and how to keep it. What is bothering me is that I am playing with single coin slice levels of accuracy, and so when it goes one slice to far when it shouldn't (...or I don't think it should) then I seem to be missing something or there is RNG built into the system.

If you succeed every single time than I can wholeheartedly say that your not trying, the same goes for everything in life.

No one learns anything from easy success.

[Hanekem]

Droolguy eredeti hozzászólása:

Hanekem eredeti hozzászólása:

Sadly, what you suggest is poor game design, at least for this game. or rather luckly. Honeslty, there might be good ways to do so, if we had access to the logic, it is best not to let the player access to the logic because that way the player can learn slowly at his or her own pace.
Honestly? you sound like the tipical minmaxer... that is no compliment

Actually, that's good game design, that is how games function.

All of them, including this one, just because you bury your head in the sand doesn't make it any different.

There is a system at work, a minigame, which in and of itself is supposed to be beatable and enjoyable or it wouldn't be in the game at all.

The only way a game can be enjoyable is if it has concrete rules, if I have to dredge those up through repeated testing myself then so be it, but the system in place currently seems to have moving goalposts.

I am just trying to find out what those rules are, the fact that you even brought up minmaxing as if creating something to execute a specific task is somehow disdainable tells me you probably shouldn't be in this conversation in the first place because I doubt you have the necessary drive to "win" to even understand where I am coming from.

Not really ,specially if it goes for the realistic approach, which is more you guessing or guestimating rather than exploting a known system.

Honestly, ther are good arguments for keeping the guts of a game, the mechanical aspects, as hidden as possible. you have a bit of feedback that is basically how (un)happy the merchant gets by your offer, until he tells you to piss off. the ammounts you can haggle are tied to the total being sold (and to the merchant total funds) so... what more do you want?

Or do you go though life with a Terminator like HUD?

[Watercrown123]

The system is just that, a system made by a computer... which is very well calibrated to the real reactions one would have from haggling. Min maxing has its place but this is one game that obviously had 0 thought put into it for players who enjoy min maxing, and thus for maximum enjoyment probably should not be played as if it were.

If you still want to try and figure this system out and "beat" it then all the power to you, but I'm 90% sure you'll have to figure it out yourself since the vast majority of players here are not the type to enjoy min maxing their games (or at least not this type of game).

[schuggerbaby]

The way I do it is to buy, sell cheap items one by one, like lockpicks or arrows and offer a "one-pip" pricediscount which is usually 0,1 Groschen.
Each transaction gives you a 1% increade how much the trader likes you.
I don't know what you think of it, but if I were a trader and some customer buys an arrow from me, haggles, gives me 10 cent tip, buys another arrow - rinse and repeat - I don't think I will like that customer more then before he had entered my shop ;)