Is the jump/duck viable?

[CovertWolf]

I haven't been pushed to a point where I need them and I'm starting to wonder if the jump/duck evades are even worth learning how to integrate into combat at this point.

Should I bother or is it a pointless gimmick?

[Ophidian]

It can be useful...but trying to figure out what attacks are low/high is a pain in the ass, and will get you killed alot. You're better off just dodging out than trying to memorize duck/jump/block patterns (though some are universal).

By universal I mean, if an enemy is hold their weapon chest height (such the dual rigged enemies or the crystal humans later on) you can block/parry them.
If it is a overhead or otherwise vertical hit, you can't block/duck/jump it (think the hammer bros' up - down smash)
If it looks like its a *BIG* attack or something you doubt you can block (such as boss body slams/lasers/missles) just dodge.

[Ginrikuzuma]

I've used it for maybe 2 enemies

the nanite humanoids (you can duck the spinning armblade attack if they wind up from a distance and charge at you)

the incinerator/cranes you can duck under their spin as well. Most of the time though I just dodge

[curry124242]

I find it useful in two situations.
1. Human dash jumping attack (duck it)
2. Dog like robot jumping attack (jump it)

[Rufus]

If jump/duck was mapped to left stick then it would probably be quite useful. On the right stick it's useless; when you're locked on you don't have a thumb on the right stick, you have it on the dodge/heal. And if you're not locked on then blocking is a pain and you're better off just dodging.

[8-Bit Zombie]

I find it most useful with the ARC welding robots since ducking/jumping their high/low sweep attacks allow you to stun them and get to their weak leg; it makes them a lot easier if you are using a slower heavy weapon since theres really no other way to get behind them before they turn.

[CovertWolf]

Originally posted by 8-Bit Zombie:

I find it most useful with the ARC welding robots since ducking/jumping their high/low sweep attacks allow you to stun them and get to their weak leg; it makes them a lot easier if you are using a slower heavy weapon since theres really no other way to get behind them before they turn.

I would agree if they didn't do two attacks in a row and if it didn't require you to release and hit block again in order to jump again

[A Regular Italian Plumber]

Its 100% a gimmick. Its easier to just dodge away than to spend the deaths trial and erroring the timing and direction needed to succesfully jump or duck.

[Ophidian]

Honestly... looking at it now. I really wish they had an indicator for what is an Unblockable attack (a glow, a flash, weapon changes color, something) and instead of the duck/jump evasion they would have let us flick the left stick while blocking to do a slide/dodge.

[BOYCOTT S-T-E-A-M!]

Originally posted by CovertWolf:

Originally posted by 8-Bit Zombie:

I find it most useful with the ARC welding robots since ducking/jumping their high/low sweep attacks allow you to stun them and get to their weak leg; it makes them a lot easier if you are using a slower heavy weapon since theres really no other way to get behind them before they turn.

I would agree if they didn't do two attacks in a row and if it didn't require you to release and hit block again in order to jump again

You don't duck / jump both attacks. You only need to duck / jump the first of their two attacks. The reason... you should instantly hit RB (gampad, unsure on k/m) to counter after that first hit. It will damage them and "knock them out" for a period of time. So that second swing will never even occur.

[Malidictus]

Originally posted by CovertWolf:

I would agree if they didn't do two attacks in a row and if it didn't require you to release and hit block again in order to jump again

Your counter-attack stuns them and interrupts their attacks. You only need to dodge the first attack, since the second never happens. It's the only enemy I've found where crouch/jump is worth using.

Originally posted by Ophidian:

Honestly... looking at it now. I really wish they had an indicator for what is an Unblockable attack (a glow, a flash, weapon changes color, something) and instead of the duck/jump evasion they would have let us flick the left stick while blocking to do a slide/dodge.

Agreed completely, and I've said as much in other threads. Lords of Shadow 2 (of all games) nailed that just right. Unblockable attacks would be accompanied by a red glow and a special sound to indicate they can't be blocked. I get that's not exactly realistic, but The Surge already has a lot of game mechanics with no explanation - revival, retrieval of loot after death, the ability to revive at a train station if you'd just arrived, etc.

Hell, go one step further and integrate this into the UI in the same way as bodypart targeting. Have the enemy's weapon flash red for an unblockable attack, and maybe play a sound depending on if it's a high attack, a low attack or "neither."

[Taron]

Its not critical to learn to do by any means, but it is helpful. Regular dodging has inherent dangers - you can't see much behind you and its easy in the heat of battle to accidentally dodge off a ledge, dodge back against a wall or corner and get trapped, or dodge into the line of sight of another enemy you would rather not join the fight. The jump/duck move combined with blocking allows you to avoid attacks without those risks.

The counter attack also can be quite useful, sometimes doing a hefty amount of damage (especially if you use a light/fast weapon, since the counter attack damage seems unrelated to your weapon type). For example, ducking the first swing and jumping over the second swing from a hammer user's spin attack then countering will deal a good chunk of damage as well as likely stagger them. You can also exploit the enemy AI a bit by staying purposefully close to an enemy to limit their moveset, making it very likely that the hammer user will use said spin attack (only other attack they'll likely use when you are in their face is a quick jab which you can time block and then counter).

In the Arc robot example, if you stand right in front of them they'll only ever perform 3 moves at that range - high sweep, low sweep, or ground flame. Back away from the ground flame, and jump/duck then counter the sweeps to stun them and get some free hits on the back.

Mostly though I just think it makes me feel more bad-ass to use all the tools at my disposal, so I take the time to figure out what moves the jump/duck works on, what moves a timed block works well on, etc so when I'm fighting the same enemy later I have multiple options. I do agree that it would be nice if the jump/duck were easier to actually perform though.

[Transcendental Raccoon]

It's totally viable, but is not required.
It's 100% will make your life easier fighting Nanites and Smelter machines.
You can also duck and jump unblockable combos of the security guards with staves (jump 1st and duck 2nd).

I'd say if you're a dodge guy, you're fine with just that, but if you're a block/parry kind of guy, ducking and jumping worth learning since you can riposte after them as well.

[Malidictus]

People keep talking about ducking the Smelters and avoiding their spin attack, but they almost never do that against me. All I end up doing is running past their grinder arm, and they're basically done. The arm traverses too slowly to catch up to me, so I just keep walking around the other side and beating on the thing every time it opens its sides.

As I said before, though - be nice if we had a better way of telling which attacks can be ducked or jumped besides taking hits to the face. There are also a bunch of attacks that look like they can be jumped, but I've not been able to. Gorgon Guards have a downward stab with their staffs which looks like a low attack but I can't jump over it. Doesn't help that the jump/duck animations are so slow that I have to start them so far in advance I don't always have time to see what attack's even coming.

[Chronic Complainer Reviews]

Have you fought a guard yet? They use counters like crazy. The thing is they do it so fast you might not realize that is what they are doing. Tossing in their tasers it makes them quite formidable . The enemies that can 1 shot you from ranged can be countered, the guards with staffs can be countered, the robot that swings it's arm horizontally 3 times can be countered, even the Cerberus boss can be countered. It's useful but only on horizontal attacks, and you have to know which ones you duck, or jump.

[Malidictus]

Originally posted by Chronic Complainer Reviews:

Have you fought a guard yet? They use counters like crazy. The thing is they do it so fast you might not realize that is what they are doing. Tossing in their tasers it makes them quite formidable . The enemies that can 1 shot you from ranged can be countered, the guards with staffs can be countered, the robot that swings it's arm horizontally 3 times can be countered, even the Cerberus boss can be countered. It's useful but only on horizontal attacks, and you have to know which ones you duck, or jump.

I have fought the guards, yes. I found it easier to dodge their staff attacks than to try and jump over them. They have all of one unblockable staff attack - a low-to-the-ground sweep. I presume that can be jumped over, but they have such a short tell for it given how slow the actual jump is that I've found no reason to bother trying to jump over it. Much simpler to dodge back when they do that one attack and block/counter everything else. Their taser is dangerous, but they also give you a long, obvious tell for it, which makes it easy to dodge.