The death of magic.

[Pareod]

TL;DR: Magic was good, but now it's bad and I'm not surprised, but bows might be good now.

There has been controversy over the use of magic in Souls games since the very beginning. Demon's Souls has some of the most powerful and useful spells in the franchise. Sorcery and pyromancy are combined into one category: viable. Hitting is as easy as spamming R1 on any melee weapon. There are also amazing counter spells. Second Chance gives everyone another try, Anti-Magic Field disables casting while still allowing magic damage to be dealt in full, and Warding reduces physical damage by 70%. I really love the balance of melee and magic in Demon's Souls.

Dark Souls changed magic for better and for worse, but mostly for worse. Spells can only be cast a limited number of times and are much easier to dodge. Pyromancy is its own set of spells that is nothing compared to its predecessor set because they are easy to dodge. Great Magic Barrier doesn't disable casting like Anti-Magic Field, it just basically nullifies all magic damage for a good duration of the fight. Warding, the only counter to melee, was removed. Two of the most useful spells, Pursuers and Dark Bead, weren't introduced until the DLC was released. Even with these changes magic is still viable in Dark Souls, just specific parts of it.

Dark Souls 2 only did more damage to magic. Hexes are a new set of spells that can't even compete with the 7 dark magics from Dark Souls. Affinity and Dark Hail are pathetic downgrades of Pursuers and Dark Bead. Casting speed is a new, pointless stat. After all, melee players don't have a stat associated with swing speed for weapons of the same class. Great Magic Barrier is still overpowered. Homing Soul Arrow is the new, go-to spell since it behaves differently than the other generic spells. Additions like Soul Greatsword look cool but work about as well as a Broken Straight Sword. Finally, a personal gripe: you have to beat the Duke's Dear Freja three times to get the Moonlight Greatsword and Crystal Souls Spear; two more useless magic items.

There's not much to say about Bloodborne other than it treated magic like an afterthought. There isn't a good spell. There just isn't. The DLC added in two mediocre spells. Really this game forced magic users to be spell-blades. Even the Kos Parasite is just a glorified whip.

Now there's Dark Souls 3. There have been complaints about magic on forums and in videos about magic being completely useless because it's 10x faster and more effective to just use a melee weapon. I'm sure Great Magic Barrier will be just as overpowered and I read on the wiki about a weapon-art that allows spells to be parried. It's looking good so far.

My point is that magic has been degraded with every installment of the franchise, so I'm not surprised by the complaints. I've always thought that it would be better if spells were equipped just like weapons so that each spell could have its own move-set. This would allow for ranged combos and more viable builds. It is doubtful that these problems will be addressed in Dark Souls 3, if ever, but at least bows are coming up in the world. I for one will be switching from a caster to an archer come April 12th.

[Lobo]

Yeah, too bad :3

[Tiny serpent Shnissuvihr]

I don't care, I'm still going to be rolling with magic builds and hybrid builds probably 80% of the time.
Magic is just so much more fun than melee builds, specially when R1 spamming is so damn common in these series. magic just adds alot more strategical play.

[Doctor Evil (My Deep Trap)]

Originally posted by Pareod:

TL;DR: Magic was good, but now it's bad and I'm not surprised, but bows might be good now.

There has been controversy over the use of magic in Souls games since the very beginning. Demon's Souls has some of the most powerful and useful spells in the franchise. Sorcery and pyromancy are combined into one category: viable. Hitting is as easy as spamming R1 on any melee weapon. There are also amazing counter spells. Second Chance gives everyone another try, Anti-Magic Field disables casting while still allowing magic damage to be dealt in full, and Warding reduces physical damage by 70%. I really love the balance of melee and magic in Demon's Souls.

Dark Souls changed magic for better and for worse, but mostly for worse. Spells can only be cast a limited number of times and are much easier to dodge. Pyromancy is its own set of spells that is nothing compared to its predecessor set because they are easy to dodge. Great Magic Barrier doesn't disable casting like Anti-Magic Field, it just basically nullifies all magic damage for a good duration of the fight. Warding, the only counter to melee, was removed. Two of the most useful spells, Pursuers and Dark Bead, weren't introduced until the DLC was released. Even with these changes magic is still viable in Dark Souls, just specific parts of it.

Dark Souls 2 only did more damage to magic. Hexes are a new set of spells that can't even compete with the 7 dark magics from Dark Souls. Affinity and Dark Hail are pathetic downgrades of Pursuers and Dark Bead. Casting speed is a new, pointless stat. After all, melee players don't have a stat associated with swing speed for weapons of the same class. Great Magic Barrier is still overpowered. Homing Soul Arrow is the new, go-to spell since it behaves differently than the other generic spells. Additions like Soul Greatsword look cool but work about as well as a Broken Straight Sword. Finally, a personal gripe: you have to beat the Duke's Dear Freja three times to get the Moonlight Greatsword and Crystal Souls Spear; two more useless magic items.

There's not much to say about Bloodborne other than it treated magic like an afterthought. There isn't a good spell. There just isn't. The DLC added in two mediocre spells. Really this game forced magic users to be spell-blades. Even the Kos Parasite is just a glorified whip.

Now there's Dark Souls 3. There have been complaints about magic on forums and in videos about magic being completely useless because it's 10x faster and more effective to just use a melee weapon. I'm sure Great Magic Barrier will be just as overpowered and I read on the wiki about a weapon-art that allows spells to be parried. It's looking good so far.

My point is that magic has been degraded with every installment of the franchise, so I'm not surprised by the complaints. I've always thought that it would be better if spells were equipped just like weapons so that each spell could have its own move-set. This would allow for ranged combos and more viable builds. It is doubtful that these problems will be addressed in Dark Souls 3, if ever, but at least bows are coming up in the world. I for one will be switching from a caster to an archer come April 12th.

they could just buff cast time or tracking
tl;dr they could easily buff magic so keep your pants on

[Sir Xorion]

You do realize the spell Vow of Silence prevents spells from being cast in Dark Souls, right? And you forget how overpowered Climax is. I have a hyperbuild in Dark Souls 1 that can do over 4000 magic damage in a single hit. Also, Dark Souls 1 had a casting speed variable as well. Dexterity would increase spell speed up to 45. There are many inconsistancies in your post, and most people will agree with me when I say that magic is very overpowered in the dark souls series.

I can't tell if this is a troll thread or not...

[Hollowed]

The only reason magic is bad right now is because of a glitch that removes scaling for almost all catalysts. Pyromancy is still godlike, and the other magic paths should be fixed in a couple weeks or less.

[Girtholomew]

Originally posted by Sir Xorion:

You do realize the spell Vow of Silence prevents spells from being cast in Dark Souls, right? And you forget how overpowered Climax is. I have a hyperbuild in Dark Souls 1 that can do over 4000 magic damage in a single hit. Also, Dark Souls 1 had a casting speed variable as well. Dexterity would increase spell speed up to 45. There are many inconsistancies in your post, and most people will agree with me when I say that magic is very overpowered in the dark souls series.

I can't tell if this is a troll thread or not...

Its only overpowered if you are playing against people who are idiots and/or new players. Any skilled players in DaS 1 can dodge pretty much any spell with a simple medium roll, with maybe dark bead being the exception. And in DaS 2 Dodging spells is even easier with better netcode and I frames. I always laugh against climax builds as thew throw their souls away trying to hit me. In all honesty INT builds in the first two dark souls are more useful for buffs and certain weapons that have INT scaling (moonlight greatsword, velka's rapier, blue flame, etc.).

That said, against tank builds and inexperienced players, magic wil just annihilate them. It's also somewhat useful against ganks when the enemy tends to be more aggressive. I haven't watched much footage of DaS3, but perhaps there will be some new spells like dark bead that may be of some use. I think the idea of having a sorcerer build with literally only blue flasks sounds kinda badass, but lord knows if magic will be effective or not.

[Bloodyfish]

Originally posted by horowitzb25:

The only reason magic is bad right now is because of a glitch that removes scaling for almost all catalysts. Pyromancy is still godlike, and the other magic paths should be fixed in a couple weeks or less.

No, the issue is that for whatever reason they decided to make scaling ♥♥♥♥ until high levels. Instead of going to 40 or 50, mages have to go to 60 or 70. No idea how I can make a dex/int hybrid and keep it from being massively overleveled for pvp.

Still, there's one spell that's essentially a giant blue laser beam, so I don't have the choice to not be a sorcerer.

[Sir Xorion]

Originally posted by Nereus:

Originally posted by Sir Xorion:

You do realize the spell Vow of Silence prevents spells from being cast in Dark Souls, right? And you forget how overpowered Climax is. I have a hyperbuild in Dark Souls 1 that can do over 4000 magic damage in a single hit. Also, Dark Souls 1 had a casting speed variable as well. Dexterity would increase spell speed up to 45. There are many inconsistancies in your post, and most people will agree with me when I say that magic is very overpowered in the dark souls series.

I can't tell if this is a troll thread or not...

Its only overpowered if you are playing against people who are idiots and/or new players. Any skilled players in DaS 1 can dodge pretty much any spell with a simple medium roll, with maybe dark bead being the exception. And in DaS 2 Dodging spells is even easier with better netcode and I frames. I always laugh against climax builds as thew throw their souls away trying to hit me. In all honesty INT builds in the first two dark souls are more useful for buffs and certain weapons that have INT scaling (moonlight greatsword, velka's rapier, blue flame, etc.).

That said, against tank builds and inexperienced players, magic wil just annihilate them. It's also somewhat useful against ganks when the enemy tends to be more aggressive. I haven't watched much footage of DaS3, but perhaps there will be some new spells like dark bead that may be of some use. I think the idea of having a sorcerer build with literally only blue flasks sounds kinda badass, but lord knows if magic will be effective or not.

Right, but in general magic IS overpowered. It doesn't matter if it's easy to dodge or not. That wasn't what I was saying. Being able to oneshot any boss in the game is overpowered. And I was saying that it's not as weak as OP is trying to make it out to be. Velka's rapier was great btw. Loved that weapon.

[Relevant Combiner]

I always heard magic was the easy mode of dark souls... where are these statements now? I guess once you git gid enough the R1 spam seems easy but it didn't start that way. Tbh I dont know what to think of magic.

[Decono]

http://oldmanclub.org/dota/_images/7f2f117185e87c1f7355381368e0bc27/1966%20-%20anti-mage%♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥%20mug%20reaction.png

[Sir Xorion]

Originally posted by PappyBakesCakes:

I always heard magic was the easy mode of dark souls... where are these statements now? I guess once you git gid enough the R1 spam seems easy but it didn't start that way. Tbh I dont know what to think of magic.

Fo pve, magic is probably the easiest way to play there is. Especially on NG+ and after, as you already have the build completely maximized. 4 Kings? More like... One king.

[Hollowed]

Originally posted by Bloodyfish:

Originally posted by horowitzb25:

The only reason magic is bad right now is because of a glitch that removes scaling for almost all catalysts. Pyromancy is still godlike, and the other magic paths should be fixed in a couple weeks or less.

No, the issue is that for whatever reason they decided to make scaling ♥♥♥♥ until high levels. Instead of going to 40 or 50, mages have to go to 60 or 70. No idea how I can make a dex/int hybrid and keep it from being massively overleveled for pvp.

Still, there's one spell that's essentially a giant blue laser beam, so I don't have the choice to not be a sorcerer.

No really, people have tested this, and basically every sorcery catalyst except the starting one has broken scaling, with lower damage even with a higher int scaling. Some spells even randomly do 12 damage even though weaker spells do regular damage. It's a bug, and will be fixed.

[Bloodyfish]

Originally posted by horowitzb25:

Originally posted by Bloodyfish:

No, the issue is that for whatever reason they decided to make scaling ♥♥♥♥ until high levels. Instead of going to 40 or 50, mages have to go to 60 or 70. No idea how I can make a dex/int hybrid and keep it from being massively overleveled for pvp.

Still, there's one spell that's essentially a giant blue laser beam, so I don't have the choice to not be a sorcerer.

No really, people have tested this, and basically every sorcery catalyst except the starting one has broken scaling, with lower damage even with a higher int scaling. It's a bug, and will be fixed.

Are you sure? People on steam are saying one thing, and people on reddit are saying another thing. Reddit seems to think the majority of gains from int and faith occur from 50 to 60, and spells calculate their damage with magadjust x multiplier - penalty. Where was the scaling confirmed to be bugged? If what reddit says is true, those stronger spells might just have a higher penalty but higher multiplier.

[Girtholomew]

Originally posted by Sir Xorion:

Originally posted by Nereus:

Its only overpowered if you are playing against people who are idiots and/or new players. Any skilled players in DaS 1 can dodge pretty much any spell with a simple medium roll, with maybe dark bead being the exception. And in DaS 2 Dodging spells is even easier with better netcode and I frames. I always laugh against climax builds as thew throw their souls away trying to hit me. In all honesty INT builds in the first two dark souls are more useful for buffs and certain weapons that have INT scaling (moonlight greatsword, velka's rapier, blue flame, etc.).

That said, against tank builds and inexperienced players, magic wil just annihilate them. It's also somewhat useful against ganks when the enemy tends to be more aggressive. I haven't watched much footage of DaS3, but perhaps there will be some new spells like dark bead that may be of some use. I think the idea of having a sorcerer build with literally only blue flasks sounds kinda badass, but lord knows if magic will be effective or not.

Right, but in general magic IS overpowered. It doesn't matter if it's easy to dodge or not. That wasn't what I was saying. Being able to oneshot any boss in the game is overpowered. And I was saying that it's not as weak as OP is trying to make it out to be. Velka's rapier was great btw. Loved that weapon.

Ah, forgive me. I incorrectly assumed we were talking about PvP meta. Yes I agree completely magic is quite powerful for general use. Dark orb in DaS2 turned PvE into easy mode. And I'm really glad someone other than me uses Velka's rapier! Hands down my favorite nonbuff weapon in that game.

[shenmuehua]

Magic s not bad. Can be OP in end game.

Only the progression curv has been modified to be more "balanced"


On a side nte, I didn t know about this bug. Hope they fix it for the release.