Artificial difficulty with Jailers

[Natrix]

Is it just me or are the jailers way to hard. Usually in Darksouls 1 you can avoid all dmg and generally beat the game without taking any damage. These Jailors are just adding unecesarry unavoidable damage. I know line of sights stops the damage, but it doesnt help when you have to kill them to proceed. It is a % based constant HP reduction, equipment load increase, and they can then proceed to walk up to you and kill you with a 2 hit combo. not to mention how fast they can walk up to you. A good way to balance them would be to cap the hp reduction, or make them slower. I understand the game is supposed to be difficult, this however isnt being difficult on a "get gud" perspective its just unavoidable damage. If there is a way to avoid it and still be able to kill them without needing to chug 2 of your flask, I will retract my statements. For now though I feel like these enemies are unfair, especially since there are rooms with 2-4 of them in it and the hp reduction stacks if i am not mistaken.

[BlazeRomulus]

Originally posted by JoeShmo:

Originally posted by BaltasarOnMeth:

You can sneak up and finish them with a combo. Do you expect every enemy to work the same way, like drawing their attention, locking on and circling around them, blocking and parrying?

Besides that, there is only one encounter with them, that makes it hard to impossible to kill them all in close combat without being hit by the effect. This special room is a great demonstration of video game logic, as any sane person would see a big hall full of people in robes and simply try to sneak around. It's impossible to create every encounter equally challenging for every possible build.

Challenge isn't the issue though. There's no challenge to be had from the jailer's gaze. It's just a bad design that forces players to go out of their way to avoid it, or just take the hit.

It's the only enemy in the game with this kind of player interaction; and I don't see anything interesting / skill based / etc. involved with it.

"If my build can't deal with them easily then it's artificial dificulty"

You can just hidden body them or just run past them cause it's something you can do.

[GMҞ]

gimmie dat sweet necro

[JoeShmo]

Originally posted by Blaze:

Originally posted by JoeShmo:

Challenge isn't the issue though. There's no challenge to be had from the jailer's gaze. It's just a bad design that forces players to go out of their way to avoid it, or just take the hit.

It's the only enemy in the game with this kind of player interaction; and I don't see anything interesting / skill based / etc. involved with it.

"If my build can't deal with them easily then it's artificial dificulty"

You can just hidden body them or just run past them cause it's something you can do.

Interesing two lines.

[Dura]

Originally posted by Blaze:

Originally posted by JoeShmo:

Challenge isn't the issue though. There's no challenge to be had from the jailer's gaze. It's just a bad design that forces players to go out of their way to avoid it, or just take the hit.

It's the only enemy in the game with this kind of player interaction; and I don't see anything interesting / skill based / etc. involved with it.

"If my build can't deal with them easily then it's artificial dificulty"

You can just hidden body them or just run past them cause it's something you can do.

You do know that argue with a point that does not matter at all in this whole "discussion". I can run past them. Probably everybody with half a brain can. It's not like it's impossible.

The problem is the design itself. You NEED to either wait after killing the mob for 20 or 30 seconds or hide behind a wall. Those are proper examples of bad design. It makes the game a waiting game. What would happen if you got invaded at the moment your HP got to 1? A stupid throwing knife would kill you. A small scratch would kill you.

There enemies are a proper example of "run" or "cheese". Sure. You can snipe them with magic/pyro/miracles or a bow/crossbow OR even use consumables to finish them off from a distance. But it is a stupid mechanic that does nothing but makes the game a waiting game if you like to clear areas. Those enemies are NOT hard. Only annoying. You didn't get hit once? Well. You still need to estus because your hp got reduced to 1. (Or use a divine weapon/ring to regen HP).

People who argue that this is "proper" design of enemies should really stop. It is obvious as the glorious sun in the sky (PRAISE IT NOW) that they are not. It's not as bad as the tracking some enemies in dark souls 2 had, but still annoying. (Remember those giant armors wielding greatweapons? Those in dragon peak were ♥♥♥♥). It adds some stupid artificial difficulty. Maybe the term "artificial difficulty" does not really fit into their descrpition completly, but it does not really change the fact that the jailer are a design fail in this game.

[GMҞ]

Originally posted by Dura:

Originally posted by Blaze:

"If my build can't deal with them easily then it's artificial dificulty"

You can just hidden body them or just run past them cause it's something you can do.

You do know that argue with a point that does not matter at all in this whole "discussion". I can run past them. Probably everybody with half a brain can. It's not like it's impossible.

The problem is the design itself. You NEED to either wait after killing the mob for 20 or 30 seconds or hide behind a wall. Those are proper examples of bad design. It makes the game a waiting game. What would happen if you got invaded at the moment your HP got to 1? A stupid throwing knife would kill you. A small scratch would kill you.

There enemies are a proper example of "run" or "cheese". Sure. You can snipe them with magic/pyro/miracles or a bow/crossbow OR even use consumables to finish them off from a distance. But it is a stupid mechanic that does nothing but makes the game a waiting game if you like to clear areas. Those enemies are NOT hard. Only annoying. You didn't get hit once? Well. You still need to estus because your hp got reduced to 1. (Or use a divine weapon/ring to regen HP).

People who argue that this is "proper" design of enemies should really stop. It is obvious as the glorious sun in the sky (PRAISE IT NOW) that they are not. It's not as bad as the tracking some enemies in dark souls 2 had, but still annoying. (Remember those giant armors wielding greatweapons? Those in dragon peak were ♥♥♥♥). It adds some stupid artificial difficulty. Maybe the term "artificial difficulty" does not really fit into their descrpition completly, but it does not really change the fact that the jailer are a design fail in this game.

It's not like it's a long area or has a boss right there LOL.

[76561198302258082]

Are you saying Dark Souls 3 is full of BS and that the game isn't ACTUALLY hard? *GASP!*

We havn't seen THAT in this series before.





Seriously though, i die more in Mario than i do in Dark souls.

[JoeShmo]

Originally posted by Statickai Syan -Backup-:

Are you saying Dark Souls 3 is full of BS and that the game isn't ACTUALLY hard? *GASP!*

We havn't seen THAT in this series before.





Seriously though, i die more in Mario than i do in Dark souls.

I usually have more lives in that game than I know what to do with. Can't remember the last time I died in a mario game ( outside of Wii Mario multiplayer + dickish friends ).

[76561198302258082]

Originally posted by JoeShmo:

Originally posted by Statickai Syan -Backup-:

Are you saying Dark Souls 3 is full of BS and that the game isn't ACTUALLY hard? *GASP!*

We havn't seen THAT in this series before.





Seriously though, i die more in Mario than i do in Dark souls.

I usually have more lives in that game than I know what to do with. Can't remember the last time I died in a mario game ( outside of Wii Mario multiplayer + dickish friends ).

I die like 150 times in DS3, but then i die over 500 times in Mario, of course i always have loads of lives in Mario...but still.

[Dura]

Originally posted by Statickai Syan -Backup-:

Originally posted by JoeShmo:

I usually have more lives in that game than I know what to do with. Can't remember the last time I died in a mario game ( outside of Wii Mario multiplayer + dickish friends ).

I die like 150 times in DS3, but then i die over 500 times in Mario, of course i always have loads of lives in Mario...but still.

Try fist only challange. Or torch only. Will probably be fun. Trust me.

[BlazeRomulus]

Originally posted by Statickai Syan -Backup-:

Are you saying Dark Souls 3 is full of BS and that the game isn't ACTUALLY hard? *GASP!*

We havn't seen THAT in this series before.





Seriously though, i die more in Mario than i do in Dark souls.

It's funny tho, People have been complaining that the "game is too easy, lol i barely die" then they hit the one thing that might throw them off curve and bam "Artificial dificulty'.

[Baltasar]

Originally posted by Dura:

[...]

People who argue that this is "proper" design of enemies should really stop. It is obvious as the glorious sun in the sky (PRAISE IT NOW) that they are not. It's not as bad as the tracking some enemies in dark souls 2 had, but still annoying. (Remember those giant armors wielding greatweapons? Those in dragon peak were ♥♥♥♥). It adds some stupid artificial difficulty. Maybe the term "artificial difficulty" does not really fit into their descrpition completly, but it does not really change the fact that the jailer are a design fail in this game.

Your post made some sense until this part. You should have realized by now, that there is either plain disagreement or a misunderstanding involved. When people talk about "good design", then they either come with some sort of credibility or they will be ignored for using flat catch phrases. It's now up to you do explain, what you think "good design" was, or give us some sources, where we can see, that you are some sort of authority when it comes to game design. Don't pull a smug "everybody who disagrees with me, must be wrong" move.

Turn your opinion into something worthwhile. Explain, what makes this a "bad design". Why is it "good design", when all damage can be avoided?

I've been running pen&paper RPG's for almost two decades. I usually try to allow multiple solutions to an encounter, but this doesn't always work. You cannot expect a group of runners to obtain a keycard from a dragon asleep in his natural form without either perfect stealth or a flawless social interaction. If anyone decides to draw a handgun and shoot the dragon, then the next thing I'll have to do is sit down with each player and create a new character. Not unlike a Jailer in Darksouls 3, that dragon is very likely to hit with his claws or magic AOE likely enough to make the dice rolls a performance instead of a test. Should I let the players battle the dragon, just because this has been working fine so far, so why not now?

[JoeShmo]

Originally posted by Blaze:

Originally posted by Statickai Syan -Backup-:

Are you saying Dark Souls 3 is full of BS and that the game isn't ACTUALLY hard? *GASP!*

We havn't seen THAT in this series before.





Seriously though, i die more in Mario than i do in Dark souls.

It's funny tho, People have been complaining that the "game is too easy, lol i barely die" then they hit the one thing that might throw them off curve and bam "Artificial dificulty'.

You keep saying that word, but I do not think it means what you think it does.

[Dura]

Originally posted by BaltasarOnMeth:

Originally posted by Dura:

[...]

People who argue that this is "proper" design of enemies should really stop. It is obvious as the glorious sun in the sky (PRAISE IT NOW) that they are not. It's not as bad as the tracking some enemies in dark souls 2 had, but still annoying. (Remember those giant armors wielding greatweapons? Those in dragon peak were ♥♥♥♥). It adds some stupid artificial difficulty. Maybe the term "artificial difficulty" does not really fit into their descrpition completly, but it does not really change the fact that the jailer are a design fail in this game.

Your post made some sense until this part. You should have realized by now, that there is either plain disagreement or a misunderstanding involved. When people talk about "good design", then they either come with some sort of credibility or they will be ignored for using flat catch phrases. It's now up to you do explain, what you think "good design" was, or give us some sources, where we can see, that you are some sort of authority when it comes to game design. Don't pull a smug "everybody who disagrees with me, must be wrong" move.

Turn your opinion into something worthwhile. Explain, what makes this a "bad design". Why is it "good design", when all damage can be avoided?

I've been running pen&paper RPG's for almost two decades. I usually try to allow multiple solutions to an encounter, but this doesn't always work. You cannot expect a group of runners to obtain a keycard from a dragon asleep in his natural form without either perfect stealth or a flawless social interaction. If anyone decides to draw a handgun and shoot the dragon, then the next thing I'll have to do is sit down with each player and create a new character. Not unlike a Jailer in Darksouls 3, that dragon is very likely to hit with his claws or magic AOE likely enough to make the dice rolls a performance instead of a test. Should I let the players battle the dragon, just because this has been working fine so far, so why not now?

A "good" design is something you can avoid with game mechanics. Hiding behind a wall is not a game mechanic. It's called cheesing. Running away or stunlocking is the same. Stunlocking works for 1 or 2 enemies standing together. More than that is impossible to stunlock.

Is THAT point enough for you? Going by your logic you should explain to me why they are a "good" design. "Don't pull a smug "everybody who disagrees with me, must be wrong" move." can be said directly back at you. I already said why it's a bad design of an enemy.

Hiding behind a wall may be a strategy, but it does not mean that it's not really a game mechanic. You can neither parry, roll or block the hp-drop. I don't think even magic barrier can block it. So miracles also don't work. You can only run it out and play the waiting game. So how can you counter it? AH right. Hiding behind a wall.

[Jardenon]

Just use a black firebomb on them, and stunlock them until they die. they are nothing.

[cridus]

I just thought about a tactic: fire an arrow to hit a wall so that they turn around, then run to them using the slumbering dragoncrest ring so that they don't hear you and backstab them. if they don't die, just hit them hard as soon as they get up, like with any other enemy.
I'm about to start the irithyll dungeons area right now, so I'll try this tactic and see if it actually works well.

edit: it does.