Let's make a serious discussion about Poise

[Sephyrias]

I do agree that it would make the game unbalanced when it comes back in the same way how it was in Dark Souls 1, but I do want to be able to resist at least the initial hit of a light weapon.

Hyper armor helps, but it is spread in a weird way. I saw a list about it on reddit once, but I can't find it anymore (But I did find this list on (un)parryable weapons https://www.reddit.com/r/darksouls3/comments/4hrzmy/guide_to_parryable_and_unparryable_weapons/).
I know that UGS have hyper armor on both 1handed attacks and 2handed attacks, while greatswords and halberds have it only on 2handed attacks and some other weapons have temporarily hyper armor as weapon art.
The Hyper armor on attacks has a very short duration and takes a while to kick in.

This allows fast weapons to dominate with reactive play against slow weapons and offensive play against foes without hyper armor.

Also the Vitality stat is rather useless, because of the missing poise heavy armor seems not worth the weight. Literally.

The following steps are how I would attempt to solve it, but I'm not fixed on that:

1. Poise is always active (like in DS1) and not only during attack-animations (like in DS2)
2. No instant poise recovery after a poise break.
3. A 3 - 8 second recovery timer ticks down after taking a hit until the taken poise damage recovers. (in Dark Souls 1 it was 3-4 seconds, not sure what would be the best timer for Dark Souls 3)
4. The timer refreshes on every recieved blow.
5. Heavily increased poise damage values compared to Dark Souls 1.
A 2 handed dagger or rapier deals 10-15 poise dmg, a straight sword 15-20 poise dmg, greatswords 20-35, UGS 35-50. (not sure on the exact values)
Then you could (at best) take 1 UGS hit when you equip full Havel's (32 poise) with the Wolf Ring (12.5-20 Poise), but about 4-6 2handed rapier hits before your poise is gone for multiple seconds again.
(just for comparison: rapiers and daggers dealt 5-7.5 poise dmg in DS1 and Havel's had over 100 Poise)

I also found this comment from "Majestic McLoafvor" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0b3CbqVBrw) about a possible poise cap, something that is also worth to discuss:
"I think they should allow a basic level of poise (like enough to tank things like one dagger hit or one dog hit) but cap it off right after"

Update: I made a list of related discussions https://www.reddit.com/r/darksouls3/comments/4i4v49/gathering_of_poiserelated_discussions/

[Ziggylata]

Escrito originalmente por Erebus the Indolent:

Escrito originalmente por Ziggylata:

Here comes some math.
<SNIP>

Wraith kind of covered it, but just to add.

Poise is like absorption, each item you equip means the next item won't give as much. On paper Havel's is 37~ poise, but in practice Havel's is 32. I did some messing around (was trying to find the poise enable in offline mode to test whether the mechanic is even fully fleshed out, by all appearances it doesn't seem remotely finished or balances and I wanted to see first hand) and was looking at some of the poise values and the sets. Discovered something rather funny. If poise were enabled tomorrow heavy armor still wouldn't be "viable" to the people upset about poise. A decent medium set of armor can get in roughly the same ballpark as the super heavy armors at a much lower weight. Unless there is a magical breakpoint slightly above 65~ poise Havel's is still crap.

I honestly have a sneaking suspicion that poise isn't remotely finished or balanced.

I honestly have a sneaking suspicion the game isnt finished, Iron Pineapple showcased an instant-killing exploit that im sure wont be fixed any time soon.
I mean, for fucks sake, in Dark Souls 1, Havel Flippers were in the game for months, if not a full year.

[ WraithGear]

pretty much, heavy armors, like a lot elese in the game would still need work. there are a lot of problems with this game that anyone of us could have fixed, i don't know why FROM does this. but the current state of affairs is just horrible. my biggest complaint is fighting in this game is a lot like olympic fencing, how meny builds are viable in olympic fencing? I also have a problem with how magic scales, the lack of spell diversity, all armors give nearly the same defences as masters set with mask, and loincloth. the speed at wich one can chug, or how fast the estus heals (ONE of those changes is all thats needed). the lack of casts mages get compared to any other game, and that they have to sacrifice esetus to get more. the fact that straight swords out DPS* UGS, with better movesets. certain wepons outclass all the others in the same group by a lot (darksword). The fact that with a simple infused sheild, you have people with the namlesskings swordspear, buffing their weapon and doing 800 damage lightning blasts from a range with 1 fp every 2 seconds and just being better then any faith (or any) spell in the game.

There were some good desicions in darksouls 3, but the precidence was set in darksouls 2 by the B team. like backstab confimation, sheild break, dual weapons (though DS2 was better). the only thing they did i thought was good in this game alone, was curb twinking a bit. its still possible, but not anywhere near as bad as it was in the previous games.

[ WraithGear]

on my coment about how heavy armors not additivly stacking poise, its true that heavy armor would still not be a go too, but it would at least have a niche userbase, and even the medium armors would be able to handle a few pokes from the weakest poise breaking items in the game.

they would still be usable, but would requier not spamming R1. Also poise in my opinion should not have the totaly same effect in DS1. mainly the mechanic was that you would not regen poise hardly at all untill it was broken. then after the stagger the poise was returned to max. I would allow havels to obtain more poise, but would make haven your poise broken much more painfull. not guard breakingly bad, but i would have poise take longer then stamina to replenish.

[Erebus]

Escrito originalmente por Ziggylata:

I honestly have a sneaking suspicion the game isnt finished

You say that like it is a first for the Souls series. Every game has had numerous telltale signs of rushed development and some aspects slapped together at last minute.

[ WraithGear]

who is rushing FROM? when are they going to learn? the only reason that DS1 was a 'flawed' masterpeice was because lost izalith was copypasta dragon butt central. topped off with a gimick boss.

[Erebus]

Escrito originalmente por  WraithGear:

who is rushing FROM?

Potentials:
1. Scamco isn't giving them much time.
2. They are taking on two many projects at once given their methods.
3. They are wasting developmental time in some manner.

when are they going to learn? the only reason that DS1 was a 'flawed' masterpeice was because lost izalith was copypasta dragon butt central. topped off with a gimick boss.

It wasn't just that the entire last 1/3 of the game isn't on the same level of quality and consistency as the first 2/3s.

[ WraithGear]

yea, but lost izalith was like the moment when you relised it was all down hill.

[Erebus]

Escrito originalmente por  WraithGear:

yea, but lost izalith was like the moment when you relised it was all down hill.

Aye, it was the most glaring but all of the final areas suffered.

[Sephyrias]

Okay, I've made some PvE poise testing to figure out how the poise damage might be spread on our weapons.

I still have some weapons to test, but this might help to get an overview.
I tested it on the two Ultragreatsword Cathedral Knights outside of Oceiros and the two patroling Silver Knights right at the Londo bonfire.

Note that I did not take Weapon arts into account.

The poise recovery time was about 3-8 seconds. Poise was instantly restored to 100% upon poise break.

These were the results on the Silver Knights:

Three different stagger animations upon stun: heavy weapon and light weapon stun (very similar stun duration) and a very short stun when the Silver Knight got poise broken while attacking.

Claws: Stun on the second hit except for the dual-weild L1, then it is a stun on the third hit.

Rapiers, Straight Swords, Scythes, Katanas, Curved Swords: Always a light weapon stun animation on the second hit both 1 handed and 2 handed (except for charged R2s).

Greatswords: 1 handed R1 - stun on the second hit, 2 handed R1s always stun, R2s always stun. (heavy weapon stun animations)

Halberds: Stun on the second hit on every attack except the Gundyr Halberd, which stuns on every hit no matter if 1 or 2 handed.

UGS: Heavy stun on every attack

Cathedral Knights:

2 handed Straight Swords, Falchion: Stun on the 6th hit

2 handed Greatswords: Stun on the 5th hit

UGS: 1 handed stun on the 5th hit, 2 handed stun on the 4th hit

So far I'm surprised how low the poise damage on normal Halberds and Scythes is.
I will continue the tests later.

[Cohnway]

Escrito originalmente por Sephyrias:

Okay, I've made some PvE poise testing to figure out how the poise damage might be spread on our weapons.

I still have some weapons to test, but this might help to get an overview.
I tested it on the two Ultragreatsword Cathedral Knights outside of Oceiros and the two patroling Silver Knights right at the Londo bonfire.

Note that I did not take Weapon arts into account.

The poise recovery time was about 3-8 seconds. Poise was instantly restored to 100% upon poise break.

These were the results on the Silver Knights:

Three different stagger animations upon stun: heavy weapon and light weapon stun (very similar stun duration) and a very short stun when the Silver Knight got poise broken while attacking.

Claws: Stun on the second hit except for the dual-weild L1, then it is a stun on the third hit.

Rapiers, Straight Swords, Scythes, Katanas, Curved Swords: Always a light weapon stun animation on the second hit both 1 handed and 2 handed (except for charged R2s).

Greatswords: 1 handed R1 - stun on the second hit, 2 handed R1s always heavy stun, R2s always stun

Halberds: Stun on the second hit on every attack except the Gundyr Halberd, which stuns on every hit no matter if 1 or 2 handed.

UGS: Heavy stun on every attack

Cathedral Knights:

2 handed Straight Swords, Falchion: Stun on the 6th hit

2 handed Greatswords: Stun on the 5th hit

UGS: 1 handed stun on the 5th hit, 2 handed stun on the 4th hit

So far I'm surprised how low the poise damage on normal Halberds and Scythes is.
I will continue the tests later.

Good stuff to know. Apply all thise poise damage related stuff to PvP and you'll see how weapons that'd potentially take 3~ hits to break players poise, as one can assume would be in place for balancing, instantly poisebreaking heavy armor users will incredibly imbalance the game. I can see plainly how this lack of Poise affects both sides of the spectrum even further from your tests. Thank you, sir.

[Ziggylata]

Escrito originalmente por Sephyrias:

So far I'm surprised how low the poise damage on normal Halberds and Scythes is.
I will continue the tests later.

Thanks for teting, really.

Also, if you looked at the DS1 poise charts ever, youd see that the scythes/halberd have always been surprisingly low.

[Sephyrias]

Escrito originalmente por Commander Cohn:

Good stuff to know. Apply all thise poise damage related stuff to PvP and you'll see how weapons that'd potentially take 3~ hits to break players poise, as one can assume would be in place for balancing, instantly poisebreaking heavy armor users will incredibly imbalance the game. I can see plainly how this lack of Poise affects both sides of the spectrum even further from your tests. Thank you, sir.

We don't know the poise values on mobs yet, so it takes some math and more data to figure out how large the difference is in poise damage on certain weapons. You can't make assumtions yet.
(also the way how From would make player poise work might be different than how it works on mobs)

[Ziggylata]

Escrito originalmente por Sephyrias:

Escrito originalmente por Commander Cohn:

Good stuff to know. Apply all thise poise damage related stuff to PvP and you'll see how weapons that'd potentially take 3~ hits to break players poise, as one can assume would be in place for balancing, instantly poisebreaking heavy armor users will incredibly imbalance the game. I can see plainly how this lack of Poise affects both sides of the spectrum even further from your tests. Thank you, sir.

We don't know the poise values on mobs yet, so it takes some math and more data to figure out how large the difference is in poise damage on certain weapons. You can't make assumtions yet.

Assuming that poise damage is the same as DS1, with full havels, itll take 1 hit from a two-handed longsword to stagger a havels.
With the ammount of hits it took to stagger a silver knight, id say theu have about 70 poise or so, similar to Dark Souls 1, actually.

[Sephyrias]

Escrito originalmente por Ziggylata:

Escrito originalmente por Sephyrias:

We don't know the poise values on mobs yet, so it takes some math and more data to figure out how large the difference is in poise damage on certain weapons. You can't make assumtions yet.

Assuming that poise damage is the same as DS1, with full havels, itll take 1 hit from a two-handed longsword to stagger a havels.
With the ammount of hits it took to stagger a silver knight, id say theu have about 70 poise or so, similar to Dark Souls 1, actually.

If the Silver Knights had 70 poise, I would not have be able to stagger them with every 2handed greatsword hit, every single Ultragreatsword or Gundyr Halberd hit or 2 Claw R1s. (at least when the poise damage on weapons is similar to Dark Souls 1)

[Ziggylata]

Escrito originalmente por Sephyrias:

Escrito originalmente por Ziggylata:

Assuming that poise damage is the same as DS1, with full havels, itll take 1 hit from a two-handed longsword to stagger a havels.
With the ammount of hits it took to stagger a silver knight, id say theu have about 70 poise or so, similar to Dark Souls 1, actually.

If the Silver Knights had 70 poise, I would not have be able to stagger them with every 2handed greatsword hit, every single Ultragreatsword or Gundyr Halberd hit or 2 Claw R1s. (at least when the poise damage on weapons is similar to Dark Souls 1)

Gundyrs does more poise damage.
Ultra-greatswords kinda make sense.
Maybe I should lower it to around 50 or 60 poise, but maybe they also tweaked poise values. Id expect them to, but I also expected poise to be on.