Something isn't right here [Lore].

[BlazeRomulus]

Ludleth is a Lord of Cinder, like Gwyn yet he is sane...in fact scratch that, the whole premise of this game is that these Lords, who like Gwyn, threw themselves to link the fire before, were expected to rise from their graves and help again with the next linking.

When we found Gwyn i thought he was a mindless husk controlled by the fire, turns out he could have been very sane indeed but he just...decided to stop us ?!

[Woosle]

Originally posted by Desomega:

Originally posted by PacotheFriendlyTaco:

Ornstein was an illusion in Dark Souls 1. Smough was killed. Priscilla's origin was always loose speculation, and the thought that she could be Gwyn's daughter isn't inconceivable.

Ornstein wasn't an illusion. We get his soul from him if we kill him. So unless Gwyndolin can literally copy the souls of great warriors like that, then he was real. Just in the DS3 timeline, he left to search for the Nameless King rather than guarding an illusory goddess. We know Smough stayed behind, but there's no mention of how he died. Just that he was the last knight guarding the cathedral.

About Priscilla, I agree that it isn't inconcievable that she is Gwyn's daughter, but that doesn't change anything I said about Yorshka. Yorshka says Gwyn is her father (which could mean something as simple as "he's father to us all") but specifically says that Gwyndolin and Gwynevere are, in fact, her siblings.

It wouldn't surprise me if Priscilla is Gwyn's daughter, and Yorshka was, too. But in that case he was probably taking lessons from the greek gods in familial relations.

"Siblings" does not always mean by blood. If she is a crossbreed, she could be connected with Priscilla, and we don't know where SHE came from. My thought is, they're a family, but not by blood.

[Desomega]

Originally posted by Mepho:

This post (which I just googled) mentions both the descriptions which I was referring to, and elaborates further with both observations and speculation.

https://www.reddit.com/r/darksouls3/comments/4g233m/lore_a_post_about_dragonslayer_ornstein_spoilers/

The two descriptions:
"...associated with Smough, the last knight to remain at his post, guarding the ruined cathedral."

"In the dragonless age, this knight, who long guarded the ruined cathedral, left the land in search of their nameless king."

Since the first one must be true, the only way for the second one to be true as well is that the Ornstein guarding the Cathedral when we kill Smough can't be the "original" one.

You're referring to both of the item descriptions that I already referring to, though. Neither state that the Ornstein in DS1 was an illusion, which is what I thought you meant by stating it explicitly said he was one.

Again, it's either a retcon as you've suggested (but I disagree with), which would mean the rest of the inconsistencies between DS3 and DS1 lore are also retcons; or DS3 does not take place in the same "world" as DS1. Just a similar one.

[Riker]

Gwyn, Lord of Cider
Saw you walk through the fog

"Fugg off mate, Im n.n.n.not drunk. Aaahm gonna knock you owt ah swear...Jus...jus...just lemme finish me Scrumpy Jacks first"

Gwyn was just drunk is all

[Desomega]

Originally posted by FlushaRoss:

"Siblings" does not always mean by blood. If she is a crossbreed, she could be connected with Priscilla, and we don't know where SHE came from. My thought is, they're a family, but not by blood.

Absolutely could be the case! Again, there's no way for us to be certain of any of this. It's (almost) entirely speculation based on the little info we get from the game itself, and the info we know from past games.

[Mepho]

Originally posted by Desomega:

Originally posted by Mepho:

This post (which I just googled) mentions both the descriptions which I was referring to, and elaborates further with both observations and speculation.

https://www.reddit.com/r/darksouls3/comments/4g233m/lore_a_post_about_dragonslayer_ornstein_spoilers/

The two descriptions:
"...associated with Smough, the last knight to remain at his post, guarding the ruined cathedral."

"In the dragonless age, this knight, who long guarded the ruined cathedral, left the land in search of their nameless king."

You're referring to both of the item descriptions that I already referring to, though. Neither state that the Ornstein in DS1 was an illusion, which is what I thought you meant by stating it explicitly said he was one.

Again, it's either a retcon as you've suggested (but I disagree with), which would mean the rest of the inconsistencies between DS3 and DS1 lore are also retcons; or DS3 does not take place in the same "world" as DS1. Just a similar one.

Well, it is explicit. It says that Smough was the last knight to defend the cathedral AND that Ornstein did defend the Cathedral, but left (so he didn't die there).
This is explicitly saying that we didn't fight the real Ornstein, as we fought and killed 2 knights in the Cathedral.
That it was then an illusion or an impostor, I'd rather believe it's an illusion because of Gwyndolyn's presence and business, and Ornstein's being one of the best fighters in the land (so it would be logically easier to magically reproduce than to find an equally skilled warrior).


[edit]
About Prisci, I'm starting to think she might actually be related to the Namless King (as in Gwyn's firstborn) instead of the "regular royal family". He was the one fancying dragons, and the hate towards him would be consistent with the hate on Priscilla.
About Yorshka I have no idea, but her referencing people might not be so accountable as she knows as little as to ask us if we can fly, and we get to the tower right in front of her.
I can definitely see Gwyndolyn help her or even just caring for her anyway, being both outcasts and remnants of a ruined family.

[Riker]

Originally posted by Mepho:

Originally posted by Desomega:

You're referring to both of the item descriptions that I already referring to, though. Neither state that the Ornstein in DS1 was an illusion, which is what I thought you meant by stating it explicitly said he was one.

Again, it's either a retcon as you've suggested (but I disagree with), which would mean the rest of the inconsistencies between DS3 and DS1 lore are also retcons; or DS3 does not take place in the same "world" as DS1. Just a similar one.

Well, it is explicit. It says that Smough was the last knight to defend the cathedral AND that Ornstein did defend the Cathedral, but left (so he didn't die there).
This is explicitly saying that we didn't fight the real Ornstein, as we fought and killed 2 knights in the Cathedral.
That it was then an illusion or an impostor, I'd rather believe it's an illusion because of Gwyndolyn's presence and business, and Ornstein's being one of the best fighters in the land (so it would be logically easier to magically reproduce than to find an equally skilled warrior).

Smough wasnt a knight though. He was deemed unfit due to his love of execution

[Mepho]

Originally posted by Riker:

Smough wasnt a knight though. He was deemed unfit due to his love of execution

I've seen this discussed on Reddit already. If I remember correctly he was regarded as both.
Knight as in regular knight, but unfit to join the ranks of Artorias, Ornstein, Ciaran and Gough.
Executioner for his bloodlust.

Either way the in-game script doesn't leave space for discussions about it: he's regarded as the last knight defending the cathedral.
It would be more meaningful if we could say that Ornstein wasn't a knight, which would leave space for conjecturing his presence at the Cathedral.
As it is instead, we can surely say that Smough was the only Knight in Anor Londo's cathedral once we reach it in DS1.

[Skiptro]

Originally posted by Blaze:

Originally posted by GungZA:

it is the same with the twin princes. I am doing the lord of hollows playthrough and what i want is the same thing as the prince lothric, but we fight anyway. Lothric does not know what i will choose, and only by defeating him will i have the right to make that choice.

Same thing with Gwyn, he doesn't know if you will link the fire or not, but without defeating him you have no right to choose the fate of the world.

It is about proving yourself as the one who is worthy to determine destiny.

Well, the fire isn't dead in the lord of hollows ending, you simply stole it, it's not a dark age per say.

if you walk away from the fire someone else will link it, if you take the fire for humanity then you break the cycle of lords.

[drnmontemayor]

Sorry, but saying Smough was the last Knight standing in Anor Londo, and then finding Ornestein's gear directly bellow the arena of the guy he formerly served, is very explicit about describing the fact that Ornestein was not real at all in DS1.

Smough was a knight, just not part of the select group of Knights of Gwyn.

And about Gwyn, if we follow the logic for Soul of Cinder, he was just empty husk protecting the flame. A proxy. The rest of the Lords of Cinder were brought back to life by even greater forces in a much extreme time of the cycle.

[Skiptro]

no smough was gwyn's excecutioner, he wanted to be among the 4 elite knights but couldn't because of his cruelty, which included canibilism.

the knights are, ornstein (the only one in the base game)

Cairan from expansion
gough from expansion
and everyone's favourite abyss junky, artorius.

[Mepho]

Originally posted by drnmontemayor:

And about Gwyn, if we follow the logic for Soul of Cinder, he was just empty husk protecting the flame. A proxy. The rest of the Lords of Cinder were brought back to life by even greater forces in a much extreme time of the cycle.

This is actually very simple and logical. We did have no idea before DS3, but we can safely assume that the Gwyn, lord of cinder we fought in DS1 simply was the first incarnation of the Soul of Cinder.