Anyone else seeing invasions as being unbalanced?

[Nikohl]

Now hear me out here.

I'm well aware that as an invader you are showing up unannounced to ruin someone elses day. So rightfully you should have some difficulty in doing so.

Though honestly it seems like invaders in this game have the odds stacked against them so much, it's almost punishing people for trying to do one of the things the game has to offer (which is invading).

I can confirm personally that invasions take priority to hosts that already have phantoms summoned. The more phantoms, the more likely to be invaded. I know this due to how I play solo most of the time, and have almost never been invaded. Only twice have I encountered a player invader and one of those two times I had two phantoms summoned, the other I had AFKed in an area and came back seeing a rapier lunged down my throat.

This means that the game's multiplayer mechanics tries to force invaders into a 3v1 or at least a 2v1, which is rediculous in itself but there is more.

As any phantom in a hosts world, coop or invading, you have half your estus flasks than usual. So having collected all (or most, I'm not entirely positive on the limit) estus shards and having 12 estus flasks, I only get 6 in a hosts world. For invaders this means:

1) the host can heal TWICE as much as you. So wearing out their estus is not an option (and i've quite literally found undead hunter charms to be a requirement for invading because of this) and

2) being the game forces most invasions into a 3v1 / 2v1 scenario, it's near impossible to outlast anyone to make any headway in an invasion.

Now Co-operative invading has become a thing since Sunbros are now allowed to invade, which prioritizes worlds that are already being invaded (so you can help out the poor invaders who already are in hell) however to have a coop invasion requires the host to use an item which ALSO lets them summon a third phantom. Even more, the sunbros are prioritized to hosts who are already invaded, but quite often you can still find yourself solo invading a host, whom likely has 1 or 2 phantoms anyway (god help you if they have 3 and you're somehow put in there)

So even with cooperative invading you are guarenteed a 4v2 which is still terrible odds.

Lastly, (and I'm not saying this is a bad mechanic it's just grossly misused) the host can use an item which turns all NPCs hostile to them. The only thing an invader has to his disposal in the disparity of invading is forcing the host to make no progress, or to risk fighting NPCs and have the invader take cheap shots on them when the host is at risk or focussed elsewhere. I've encountered twice where a host summons two phantoms, making a 3v1, and also uses this and turns all the NPCs against me.

There honestly is not a single upside that invaders have anymore. It quite literally punishes you for trying to play a part of the game because the host has so many advantages while an invader gets none.

I've heard the generic "Get good" or "Learn to outwit them" or any cliche response to this topic, but it is downright unreasonable to make such a reply. On a purely pragmatic and statistical view, it would be impossible to win an invasion. You're more reliant on luck of the draw if you ever even consider invading someone else. Even parrying/dodging expertly does not help anymore since combat in this game is a mess of R1/RB spam where players can surround and stunlock you, regardless if you parry one the others will still get you.



tl;dr
You get half the estus, outlasting their healing is less than likely
You're likely to be fighting 3v1 or at least 2v1 (you as the 1)
You're likely to fight 4v2 (you as the 2) with Coop invasions
(the literal odds are against you)
Hosts can turn NPCs against you
One mistake (or simply one single action that isn't picture perfectly, expertly enacted in the most masterful way) will land you stunlocked between 2 or more people who can light attack spam you to death.

[Eagle-2]

FallenWarrior60님이 먼저 게시:

Kankes님이 먼저 게시:

Invaders can't go past 2 if I read correctly. Except in the event that the host summons a mad phantom specifically in which case there can be a 1v3 for the host. But also only one red phantom can ever invade without the host using the dried fingers. So no, unless they're looking for it, they will never be invaded by more than one red phantom.

True. I was PvPing and pretty much the only way to get invaders in is using Dried fingers. They triple teamed me and almost lost. However it was still a gank.

So you asked for more than one invader and you call that a gank? for PvP you can invade all the time, or you just think that invader are too underpowered?

[Im on EQOA Sandstorm Toons Below]

as you've said invasions to some are a form of griefing, I thought the same way myself in ds2 though I view this all differently in this one since the wolfbros made it feel more interesting and intense. but anyways, it should prioritize 2v1... though it seems to often pitch you in 3v1 situations which is frustrating. I also wonder how in the high hell it tends to throw (myself at least) people to hosts literally standing next to a bonfire so as soon as you load you see a phantom then shortly another summoned as you get there. annoying af. its probably better to invade as a purple since you get the vertebrae for killing anyone,I did get a (forked i think its called?) from killing a blue once, in one of th ematches where two spawned nearly immediately, and it claims to be worth two regular fingers but that was hard af with three guys on me to get it lol. usually had a long ass time acting like an invadee myself just to get to a better position or get away long enough to chug, and thats not the way a invader should be forced to behave. it was pretty comical sometimes. most were not ganks though, just people running through the levels with 2 phantoms already witht hem clearing ♥♥♥♥ normally. it just prioritizes it a bit too much, especially when I have been invaded plenty of times without having phantoms with me. starting to feel like hearthstone's rng, in the fact that it hates me so.

[Wicked]

Farron is pretty much dead. I chill in the forest with the covenant badge on, the symbol goes on and off, but nothing happens. Blue sentinels the same, nothing happens. Invading is right now the only time waster I have. Lvl 100 already and probably going to ng+

I encounter so many people having their 2 phantoms with them. Talking about "fairness" lel.

[Epithet Lost]

creocoder님이 먼저 게시:

Another nooby invader topic. Git Gut crab. I have 50 continous victories 1vs2 and 1vs3.

"I am aware of the game's problem; I don't care because I claim to be good enough to overcome said problems."
Good input. I'll see you out of this discussion about the problem then, since you have nothing to do with it.

[Buntkreuz]

Kankes님이 먼저 게시:

Guts님이 먼저 게시:

i cant count how many times i was invaded in DkS2 while i was in a fight with the mobs in the area, only to have the invader spawn like 10 feet away, only to get ganked. i guess what i like most now is that invaders dont spawn literally right behind me, beside me, in front of me within 5-10 feet only to gank me repeatedly. at least now there is a chance to clear a spot and be ready to fight. usually only to have them run away and crystal out but at least i didnt die. and when i do die, i feel like at least i had a sporting chance now. and not everyone can git gud either, some of us can only attain so much skill, we dont live and die by the pvp sword. so invaders have had the advantage of always being supremely skilled(yeah kind of a weak reason but there it is) and spawning RIGHT NEXT to a host. i guess at times it definitely can be unfair for the invader but perhaps this could be too much, i can see the otherside of things. i just dont things should ever truly be heavily in favor of the invader. pvp'ers looking to invade should have to work harder to get the "assassination" than the host trying to survive but thats just my opinion.

I wholeheartedly agree that is shouldn't be in favor of the invaders. Invading shouldn't be a walk in the park, but at the current moment it seems way too far in favor of the host. Twinking in older souls games wasn't really an intended feature, more just an unfortunate reality. And getting the invader right next to you is definitely frustrating but bad luck all together. In DS3 it feels like the mechanics of invading are prone to giving the invader such a hard time you might as well not invade ever.

NemesisZidar님이 먼저 게시:

but seriously guys you have to consider that invading a player is not the main purpose of this game. Its balanced in a way. I dont want to deal with invaders all the time because then i cant progress in the game aswell.
It costs Estus to heal back up, estus i wont have for a boss.
The strength of invaders should be balanced in a way that they are only a disturbance but dont drag you completely off the main focus of the game (doing the PVE and a boss), but when you dont deal with them they should have the chance to kill and stop you.
So they shouldnt be as strong to change the main purpose of the game but still strong enough to be an additional threat in a level.

You guys forget that invading never was a real PVP battle option. It was ever just meant as a disturbance for the players while they do their PVE. For real PVP you had the arenas.
Thats why they balanced the invasion mechanics in every Souls game in certain ways and thats how it should be.
Invaders shouldnt have many estus to heal back up. Back in DS you didnt even have any option to heal besides some grass which didnt heal you much.
Invaders should ever be less than PVE players.

I personally think its quite balanced. There were some dangerous fights and at some points it was so dangerous that invaders won, but it ever felt balanced enough to fight them, win and then move on.
And thats how it should be. Invaders need to use creative strategies to achieve their goal. No one said it should be easy. In fact, i think that DS2 and 3 now are much easier compared to what i remember Demons Souls PVP, which sometimes was the worst and totally unfair.
Sometimes invasions are unfair in DS3 because of a location.
They have many advantages they can use to beat their opponents. I personally dont think its that hard if you do it right. Obviously dependant on the location.

The problem at hand is that hosts also have ways in DS3 to completely remove any creative stratagies a red phantom might have, in addition to the typical odds an invader must face. And you do miss the point that, PVP is in fact the point of the game. I'm not saying you shouldn't ever progress, but invaders are supposed to be random chance encounters that make it difficult to reach the end of an area. Right now with the way summoning and invading works, it already makes invaders just a trivial annoyance and no threat what so ever. It's akin to the Ganks in DS1 where an invader would be put in a world with a host and two phantoms, only now the game explicitly targets that kind of settup.

sorry but no, it was never the point of a Souls Game to be played PVP. Its not really a PVP Game, it only as has aspects and possibilities to do PVP because it is a mechanic that is bound into the lore and point of the game.
There is ONE person who has a world. Its his/her world and no one elses world. Its like a parallel universe, each person gets his/her own picture of it.
Every other person is only a weak reflection of itself in the world of someone else. Its not your world, its someone elses, thats why you only get a smaller portion of the benefits and options in that world.
You cant affect the world (open doors), you cant interact with NPCs or kill them, you cant heal as much because you are less powerful there, you dont get item drops and so on.
Thats the point.
The point of the game is not to play PVP. The point of the game is PVE with PVP mechanics to make it harder and insert complexity to the game.
Every advantage in Souls games comes with a trade off. Having more health because you are human and not hollow and being able to summon support with Phantoms comes with the trade off of making enemies harder and allow evil phantoms to get into the world to kill you.

It is the very point of any Souls game to be an annoyance, a disturbance, a threat to the progress, not the main enemy.
It was never intended for a souls game to make the invaders a main enemy in the normal progression of the game, thats simply not the point. If you still think that, then you didnt understand how the game works and should work.
But with Demons Souls it became instantly clear what the purpose of invaders is.

The thing is this, you dont even have to fight to beat the enemy when you invade. The point is not to rush for the host and go full nuts, its also likely he/she will die through the threats of his/her world anyway.
What your quest is, is to make this progression so hard and punish the host so much, that he/she runs out of ressources and so dies "naturally". Your goal is to have him/her use as many estus possible so he/she runs out of it and dies faster due to other enemies.
Doesnt mean you cant or shouldnt go full nuts. I just say it isnt needed and that this is the point.
An Invader is an additional threat in this world of the host, nothing else. Its not the main enemy and shouldnt be, an Invader should more or less just be another NPC you have to fight or another monster. All the bigger enemies get all the same benefits the Invaders get. A Cathedral Knight can also heal himself, use miracles, can do some decent fighting and so on.
As an invader you should not get more benefit than a random big creep in the world, the only difference is your skill and patience.

Im not saying Invading is totally balanced. It can be that there are nuances that need tweaking and should be tweaked, thats not the discussion.
The discussion is see is that some try to make this game a PVP game where the only point is to fight invaders, which never was and shouldnt be the point. That invaders should be as strong as the world host or nearly as much, which is not the point and shouldnt be the point. Not only because it doesnt fit into the lore anyway.
Also the complaints come off as the inability to play proper PVP and use the ressources given. You have a whole map with threats and creeps all over the place, traps, platforming passages and maybe even a second invader to help you. As an Invader you need to use all those tools, not only your fighting skill and the hope to outlevel the host with better weapons and a bit higher stats.
I have seen many thinking they are super fancy strong and fail with their invasion so heavy in such an easy environement as the Farron Swamps because they went directly for the host.
But i have also seen people using everything possible and waiting for their chance when the host has a problem or runs into a situation that is overwhelming.
Thats your goal, to find the point to engage, not to make a duel. Thats why they introduced the PVP arenas. Which is where the classical PVP duel type of game should stay.
With invading a world you become a hunter, not an even foe.


TLDR:
It was ever the point that the Host is in a total advantage over all phantoms, because it is his/her world and not theirs, they are only weaker reflections of themselves in that world and so shouldnt be allowed to have the same strength.
You become a hunter that needs to use all ressources you can get and not a duelist and even foe in that world. You are yet only something like an other mob in this world, only that you are to control this mob and not the AI. Its like playing a Cathedral Knight or a Black Knight. They have the same advantages, can heal themselves and so on. They only dont get the same freedom and skill a player has, the principle stays the same.
You are only and should only be one threat out of many, a disturbance and annoyance, not the main foe or main focus of the game. You are there to make the progression harder for the enemy (host) and wait for your moment to make him/her pay with his/her life.
It isnt and shouldnt be about PVP, PVP is only one aspect out of many to create a trade off to the benefits of having more lives and coop allies. PVP should not work in a way that the invader is able to beat 4 enemy players at once and easily and so get super powers to stop them all.
Its your goal to kill one player, you have several options and ressources to accomplish that goal, often you only need time to wait for your victory as the world kills the host anyway through the many threats. Its your ability to watch for the right moment to engage and make progression harder. Not stop progression in one go.

[tclarke90]

invasion system is perfect, if you're good enough and tactical its not too hard to just fight host and avoid other attacks, and a lot of the time if you hold out enough another red phantom tends to invade

[Samp]

tclarke90님이 먼저 게시:

invasion system is perfect, if you're good enough and tactical its not too hard to just fight host and avoid other attacks, and a lot of the time if you hold out enough another red phantom tends to invade

[Buntkreuz]

tclarke90님이 먼저 게시:

invasion system is perfect, if you're good enough and tactical its not too hard to just fight host and avoid other attacks, and a lot of the time if you hold out enough another red phantom tends to invade

[Nikohl]

tclarke90님이 먼저 게시:

invasion system is perfect, if you're good enough and tactical its not too hard to just fight host and avoid other attacks, and a lot of the time if you hold out enough another red phantom tends to invade

It is not perfect and I won't even rephrase the logical argument I made in my initial post which proves otherwise without contrasting information. And the "good enough" for this system in order to have a worthwhile fight and not just fall over to the host and their phantoms is the absolute master level for this game. Plus when that host uses a seed of a tree of giants on you, have fun having every living thing wanting to pound your face.

[Nikohl]

NemesisZidar님이 먼저 게시:

sorry but no, it was never the point of a Souls Game to be played PVP. Its not really a PVP Game, it only as has aspects and possibilities to do PVP because it is a mechanic that is bound into the lore and point of the game.
There is ONE person who has a world. Its his/her world and no one elses world. Its like a parallel universe, each person gets his/her own picture of it.
Every other person is only a weak reflection of itself in the world of someone else. Its not your world, its someone elses, thats why you only get a smaller portion of the benefits and options in that world.
You cant affect the world (open doors), you cant interact with NPCs or kill them, you cant heal as much because you are less powerful there, you dont get item drops and so on.
Thats the point.
The point of the game is not to play PVP. The point of the game is PVE with PVP mechanics to make it harder and insert complexity to the game.
Every advantage in Souls games comes with a trade off. Having more health because you are human and not hollow and being able to summon support with Phantoms comes with the trade off of making enemies harder and allow evil phantoms to get into the world to kill you.

It is the very point of any Souls game to be an annoyance, a disturbance, a threat to the progress, not the main enemy.
It was never intended for a souls game to make the invaders a main enemy in the normal progression of the game, thats simply not the point. If you still think that, then you didnt understand how the game works and should work.
But with Demons Souls it became instantly clear what the purpose of invaders is.

The thing is this, you dont even have to fight to beat the enemy when you invade. The point is not to rush for the host and go full nuts, its also likely he/she will die through the threats of his/her world anyway.
What your quest is, is to make this progression so hard and punish the host so much, that he/she runs out of ressources and so dies "naturally". Your goal is to have him/her use as many estus possible so he/she runs out of it and dies faster due to other enemies.
Doesnt mean you cant or shouldnt go full nuts. I just say it isnt needed and that this is the point.
An Invader is an additional threat in this world of the host, nothing else. Its not the main enemy and shouldnt be, an Invader should more or less just be another NPC you have to fight or another monster. All the bigger enemies get all the same benefits the Invaders get. A Cathedral Knight can also heal himself, use miracles, can do some decent fighting and so on.
As an invader you should not get more benefit than a random big creep in the world, the only difference is your skill and patience.

Im not saying Invading is totally balanced. It can be that there are nuances that need tweaking and should be tweaked, thats not the discussion.
The discussion is see is that some try to make this game a PVP game where the only point is to fight invaders, which never was and shouldnt be the point. That invaders should be as strong as the world host or nearly as much, which is not the point and shouldnt be the point. Not only because it doesnt fit into the lore anyway.
Also the complaints come off as the inability to play proper PVP and use the ressources given. You have a whole map with threats and creeps all over the place, traps, platforming passages and maybe even a second invader to help you. As an Invader you need to use all those tools, not only your fighting skill and the hope to outlevel the host with better weapons and a bit higher stats.
I have seen many thinking they are super fancy strong and fail with their invasion so heavy in such an easy environement as the Farron Swamps because they went directly for the host.
But i have also seen people using everything possible and waiting for their chance when the host has a problem or runs into a situation that is overwhelming.
Thats your goal, to find the point to engage, not to make a duel. Thats why they introduced the PVP arenas. Which is where the classical PVP duel type of game should stay.
With invading a world you become a hunter, not an even foe.


TLDR:
It was ever the point that the Host is in a total advantage over all phantoms, because it is his/her world and not theirs, they are only weaker reflections of themselves in that world and so shouldnt be allowed to have the same strength.
You become a hunter that needs to use all ressources you can get and not a duelist and even foe in that world. You are yet only something like an other mob in this world, only that you are to control this mob and not the AI. Its like playing a Cathedral Knight or a Black Knight. They have the same advantages, can heal themselves and so on. They only dont get the same freedom and skill a player has, the principle stays the same.
You are only and should only be one threat out of many, a disturbance and annoyance, not the main foe or main focus of the game. You are there to make the progression harder for the enemy (host) and wait for your moment to make him/her pay with his/her life.
It isnt and shouldnt be about PVP, PVP is only one aspect out of many to create a trade off to the benefits of having more lives and coop allies. PVP should not work in a way that the invader is able to beat 4 enemy players at once and easily and so get super powers to stop them all.
Its your goal to kill one player, you have several options and ressources to accomplish that goal, often you only need time to wait for your victory as the world kills the host anyway through the many threats. Its your ability to watch for the right moment to engage and make progression harder. Not stop progression in one go.

However I would like to point out that the invasion and summon mechanics are part of the lore, and the fact that invaders are indeed another human being with skill far above the hollowing NPCs means they should be a significant threat. This by far does not mean they should be a bossfight in themselves but if you think you can rightly argue that the current situation is not heavily in favor of the host, so much so that invading is pointless because you can't really even touch them, then you're unaware of how multiplayer in any sense should work.

An invader is supposed to be a random chance encounter for a host, which signifies an extreem threat that needs a great deal of caution to take care of. Yes they should make it difficult for the host. You even said so yourself and that isn't the argument.

The point is that the host has so much in their own power against a red phantom that the red phantom can't even be an annoyance. They might as well not even be there.

You're immediately prioritized to worlds where they already have phantoms (not in the process of summoning, not able to summon, but ALREADY HAVE)
You're only able to heal half as much, yet you have to deal with three times the damage you would normally take.
You can't even rely on using the environment and enemies because the host can use an item that turns them against you.

And I'm sorry but yes, the point of Dark Souls is PVP because PVP is tied into the lore. The world is in chaos and people shift in between worlds all the time, sometimes being hostile. To say "Its about PVE not PVP" is not even quantifiable really, because PVP is PART of the PVE. Its PART of the world and the difficulty and the game as a whole, and it shouldn't feel like the invader is being punished simply by doing something in the game (invading).

Yet with the current state, it definitely feels like a punishment. It feels like the developers are slapping you on the hand saying "Shame on you for trying to play the game this way. We'll make the host near unstoppable to all but the absolute best of the community because you shouldn't be invading."

[Buntkreuz]

Kankes님이 먼저 게시:

tclarke90님이 먼저 게시:

invasion system is perfect, if you're good enough and tactical its not too hard to just fight host and avoid other attacks, and a lot of the time if you hold out enough another red phantom tends to invade

It is not perfect and I won't even rephrase the logical argument I made in my initial post which proves otherwise without contrasting information. And the "good enough" for this system in order to have a worthwhile fight and not just fall over to the host and their phantoms is the absolute master level for this game. Plus when that host uses a seed of a tree of giants on you, have fun having every living thing wanting to pound your face.

which again should be exactly this way and stay this way.
The host is the master of that world, he has the ability to use all the ressources in this world to get to the end of a level, no matter whether you invade him or not. You as an invader have limited ressources. But you can and have to use these ressources strategically to achieve your goal. When you dont do that, you fail. Easy thing. That you as an invader have to adapt to every new player and his world is a gameplay mechanic and the competence you need to be good at it. That you as an invader have different and quite many options but also problems you can use or have to face against is a mechanic that makes this interesting.
The Souls games are done in exactly this fashion and it should stay this way, it literally is quite perfect.
Invasions are only one gameplay aspect in Souls Games not even a big one. Its neither a main mechanic, nor is it the most important one. Its ONE mechanic and is bound into many other mechanics and aspects. So ofcourse it is bound to rules of all the other mechanics.
The problem i see is, that people try to cut PVP out of the mix and see it as a single mechanic and gameplay aspect. It doesnt work this way. PvP only works in the context of the other gamemechanics and aspects and so also is influenced by all these things.
Not only covenants, but also progression in the hosts game world, his equipment, the many different items or spells a player can use to change the rules (for example stop the usage of magic or estus), the enemies in the game, the bosses and areas, players, coop phantoms and so on.
All these things are either ressources or problems but they are ever giving rules to the invasion.
In detail there can occur problems that make it inbalanced.
The problems you describe in your OP are no problems but proper balancing and should stay this way.
I take one point out of it: The estus usage amount.
Why would you get as many estus as the host?
You are a phantom, a weak version of yourself, and its his world. You should be less powerful there as it is not yours. Simple as that. Why should an image of a person be as strong as the real version?
Not only that but i call it out as your incompetence to use the ressources you have. There are several ways to cut the estus usage out of the host so he cant use it. Not only with proper fighting but also with items you can use to cut it off.
When the amount of estus is too less for you as an Invader, than you are simply too bad to win there.
You only need estus to heal when you were bad at fighting and lost health. You only need estus when your opponent is stronger than you. Infact i call out that Invasions not only are much much easier than before in history of the series, i also call the opposite and think that the amount of estus an invader gets is too many. So often i slap ther butts down to 10 health and they roll away and heal back up while i lost no health. I was better, i deserve to win, and to now get back to the point i made, in other Souls Titles it was that way because there you got NO estus anyway. No way to heal except you used spells or wasted expensive items.

[Washing Machine]

NemesisZidar님이 먼저 게시:

You only need estus to heal when you were bad at fighting and lost health. You only need estus when your opponent is stronger than you. Infact i call out that Invasions not only are much much easier than before in history of the series, i also call the opposite and think that the amount of estus an invader gets is too many. So often i slap ther butts down to 10 health and they roll away and heal back up while i lost no health. I was better, i deserve to win, and to now get back to the point i made, in other Souls Titles it was that way because there you got NO estus anyway. No way to heal except you used spells or wasted expensive items.

Should be that no phantom has estus tbh.

I don't like it when I fight 3 guys at the same time, get some of them low, and they just take turns with one or two mashing r1 on me so I gotta keep dodging while the guys that got low heal themselves full again. They should be dead if they keep getting hit. Basically the invader can't make mistakes while fighting, but they can keep making mistakes and keep getting away with it. This was also the case in previous titles, but in this it's way out of proportion and people who are grossly incompetent can still be highly succesful since it's a struggle to kill anyone off from the gank.

The game is too forgiving with this, and it hurts invasions the most. If estus wasn't so ridiculously quick, invasions would be a whole lot faster and not degenerate into 30minutes of playing chicken with some crossbow hollow.

[Buntkreuz]

the enemies in the host world are already from the beginning a threat to you as an invader aswell without him using an item. Thats the point. Their hits still can hit and kill you. Just yesterday a Stray Demon crushed an invader and a coop phantom together.
What you call out is how it should be. A threat but not a big threat. About the priority of connecting invaders with other player worlds i can only say i experienced both in an equal way. I got many invaders into my world (for example yesterday in the swamps) while i was alone or had only one coop player. But i also had many invading into worlds with 3 or 4 players. So i call it out to be kind of equal. Yet it doesnt change that it is up to you to win there. You say you have to face 3 times as much damage than otherwise. But thats the point, yo ustill dont understand it right?
The point of the whole invasion is that you have to face more. If it was red phantom and only the human player it wouldnt be even. Why? The trade off of the Souls games is the following:
you are going through the game as a hollow with less health and no help, just you on your own, but also nothing can enter your world.
You decide you need help from others and more health, but now others can get into your world and make it harder.
Its simple math.
The game doesnt need to be fair for you as an invader, it needs only to do this trade off.
This game focusses on the main character, which is the one player in human form ,the host.
When you enter the world, the whole plot and game only focusses on this one player, not you as an invader. You are nothing, just a disturbance. You can be as deadly as the weakest enemy, or a miniboss, you can be as deadly as the poison in swamps or a platforming passage, or a campfire.
Anything in Souls can kill you, from a snail to a campfire to a dragon. And you as an invader tend to be inbetween as one other threat to the main character.
The game doesnt need to be fair for you as an invader, it needs to do the trade off for the main character. You argue as someone who thinks as if you are the main person in an invaded world, but you are not, get away from this thought, it was never intended to be this way.
This is not a game where all players in a world playing multiplayer are equally strong. Theres only one strong player in a session and thats the main character.

[Buntkreuz]

Washing Machine님이 먼저 게시:

NemesisZidar님이 먼저 게시:

You only need estus to heal when you were bad at fighting and lost health. You only need estus when your opponent is stronger than you. Infact i call out that Invasions not only are much much easier than before in history of the series, i also call the opposite and think that the amount of estus an invader gets is too many. So often i slap ther butts down to 10 health and they roll away and heal back up while i lost no health. I was better, i deserve to win, and to now get back to the point i made, in other Souls Titles it was that way because there you got NO estus anyway. No way to heal except you used spells or wasted expensive items.

Should be that no phantom has estus tbh.

I don't like it when I fight 3 guys at the same time, get some of them low, and they just take turns with one or two mashing r1 on me so I gotta keep dodging while the guys that got low heal themselves full again. They should be dead if they keep getting hit. Basically the invader can't make mistakes while fighting, but they can keep making mistakes and keep getting away with it. This was also the case in previous titles, but in this it's way out of proportion and people who are grossly incompetent can still be highly succesful since it's a struggle to kill anyone off from the gank.

The game is too forgiving with this, and it hurts invasions the most. If estus wasn't so ridiculously quick, invasions would be a whole lot faster and not degenerate into 30minutes of playing chicken with some crossbow hollow.

i agree, estus is kinda fast. At least it feels faster when others use it imo.
I agree that there might be a misbalance, but again, people need to remember that this isnt about invasions. Coop players need estus because they have a much tougher task to accomplish. Get through a level and beat a boss. You on the other side only need to kill one player. As an invader you dont have to face real threat compared to them. Differently said, try playing each level without the use of even one estus. Its hard. Then also invaders getting in and you still cant use an estus? And then still beat a boss? I dont think that would be balanced.
The point of invasions also is, that you must not beat the host player. It is intended to make it harder for the host player. Because many invaders can get in. When you as an invader dont achieve the goal of killing him,l bad for you. Thats YOUR goal. The goal of the whole game isnt that YOU kill him but someone out of many, or something.
The only goal the game has is to kill the player. This might be due to invader nr1. or invader nr. 6. Your goal is to kill him, sure, but also you goal is to make him weaker for the next invader. People tend to forget that. And when you look at it from that perspective, invaders are too strong.

[Washing Machine]

NemesisZidar님이 먼저 게시:

Coop players need estus because they have a much tougher task to accomplish. Get through a level and beat a boss. You on the other side only need to kill one player. As an invader you dont have to face real threat compared to them. Differently said, try playing each level without the use of even one estus. Its hard. Then also invaders getting in and you still cant use an estus? And then still beat a boss? I dont think that would be balanced.

Highly disagree on this, since I think the game is not balanced at all to handle co-op. Enemies have no poise so they just get stunlocked to death by the duos and trios, never getting to fight back. Very few enemies have AOE moves or any sort of wide sweep attacks, mostly they just turn to face one guy, and do attacks that have no hitbox on their sides or behind them, allowing the co-op gank to just surround them and again stunlock them with ease.

Co-op is completely broken as far as I'm concerned. Everything becomes a non-challenge, majority of bosses included.