DS2 set standards for weapon arts.

[iLuvKoRn]

Almost every Weapon Skill in Dark Souls 3 is based off of using the FP meter.
It's the same pool that Miracles, Pyromancies and Sorceries also use.
The current system undermines both spells and Weapon Arts.

Dark Souls 2 however, treated such weapon functions in the way it should've been done.
There are quite a number of weapons in this game that drains durability for buffs/attacks.
On the other hand, they can serve as an extension of the moveset or abilities of the weapon.
I'll begin by listing notable examples of weapons with skills that should drain durability.
Keep in mind though that there are weapon arts that shouldn't really use up durability.

DS3 Durability skills

1. Moonlight Greatsword
   
2. Firelink Greatsword
   
3. Dragonslayer Swordspear
   
4. Profaned Greatsword
   
5. Twin Prince's Greatsword
   
6. Lorian's Greatsword
   
7. Lothric's Holy Sword
   
8. Wolnir's Holy Sword
   
9. Sunlight Straight Sword
   
10. Weapons with Warcry
    
11. Weapons with Perseverance
    
12. Weapons with Galvanize
    
13. Weapons with Sharpen
    
14. Every single casting tool
    
15. Yorshka's Spear
    
16. Tailbone Short Sword
    
17. Tailbone Spear
    
18. Eleonora
    
19. Crescent Moon Sword
    
20. Pontiff Knight Sword
    
21. Pontiff Knight Scythe

So yeah, there's a good portion of weapons that could use Durability.
It's more balanced now because of item capacity, so we can't hold 99 repair powders.
However as I said like before, there are also a good number of weapons that doesn't need to use up Durability to serve as an extension.
Kind of like how Rapiers and Scmitars can parry, or the Majestic Greatsword can spin.
Of course, lets not forget the weapons that do end up using Durability.
Throne Defender & Watcher Greatswords, Channeler's Trident, Wrathful Axe, Ice Rapier, Spider Fang, Bewitched Alonne Sword, Dragonslayer Spear, Spitfire Spear, and MLGS.

[Iri]

I disagree.
Durability is at it's core and within the borders of current implementation a purely annoyance mechanic, adding nothing to actual combat experience. Just another meter to keep an eye on and pop a repair powder when it gets low.
The whole 'WA use FP' thing to me looks like 'We can't make WA spamming balanced, so we'll just put a use limit on them'.

[iLuvKoRn]

Originally posted by Iris of the White:

I disagree.
Durability is at it's core and within the borders of current implementation a purely annoyance mechanic, adding nothing to actual combat experience.

DS2 was the only game of the entire Souls series that made durability seem important.
It encouraged players to use more than one type of weapon; instead of using that same singular weapon over and over again (which really encouraged weapon variety).
Making weapons use up durability for special attacks was a standard set by Dark Souls 1, which was applied to a varied selection of weapons that included the Crystal Ring Shield, Moonlight Greatsword, Dragonslayer Spear, Stone Greatsword, et cetera.

Originally posted by Iris of the White:

Just another meter to keep an eye on and pop a repair powder when it gets low.

It's the same thing for Weapon Arts in Dark Souls 3.
We're going to end up switching back to our Simple weapons when FP runs low.
That, or we're going to go ahead and drink up on Ashen Estus when it gets low, while switching to our own Ashen Estus rings at the same time to prevent it from going to waste.
That is if we decide to actually invest in Ashen Estus, and not stick to Simple infusions.
Most of the time though, it's never worth giving up Real Estus over Ashen Estus.

Originally posted by Iris of the White:

The whole 'WA use FP' thing to me looks like 'We can't make WA spamming balanced, so we'll just put a use limit on them'.

Due to how Dark Souls 3 had adopted Bloodborne's standard of maximum capacity, we would have even more reasons to support the allowance of having a bunch of weapons like Axes, Hammers and the likes to use up Durability; because of the fact that we can't stock up on 99 repair powders anymore; unlike the way we were allowed to before.
Durability inside of Dark Souls 3 is worthless, and there's no threat of weapon-breakage.
Even in Dark Souls 1 with me reaching end-game, I got a warning for my Estoc.

[Iri]

Originally posted by Shadowcon66:

It encouraged players to use more than one type of weapon; instead of using that same singular weapon over and over again (which really encouraged weapon variety).

More than encouraging weapon variety, that forces people to split (or farm) upgrade materials in order to have a backup weapon that won't get used outside of necessity and would be viewed as a forced hindrance rather than provided variety. People that intend to use multiple weapons from the start will use all of those regardless of durability.

Originally posted by Shadowcon66:

It's the same thing for Weapon Arts in Dark Souls 3.

And I ended up very rarely, if ever, using WAs in PvE, precisely because they are limited in the number of uses from bonfire to bonfire, and I can't use them freely - so I end up oversaving them in usual gameplay and only occasionally using them purely for style points. If they were to consume durability as well as FP, I think I would never used them at all.

Originally posted by Shadowcon66:

Due to how Dark Souls 3 had adopted Bloodborne's standard of maximum capacity, we would have even more reasons to support the allowance of having a bunch of weapons like Axes, Hammers and the likes to use up Durability; because of the fact that we can't stock up on 99 repair powders anymore; unlike the way we were allowed to before.

So... if we were to implement that, what exactly would stop people from buying storage capacity of Repair Powders and spamming them to get a shitload of WA uses per restock as you still get like 20 of Powders in your pockets? As the Powders are independent of Estus, it will be basically free, as farming souls is not a problem - only an additional chore that would have to be performed a bit more frequently.
If we instead cut the amount of Repair Powders that you can carry, you'll end up with the current situation for people who don't allot Ashen Estus. Very small limit on amount of uses per restock + risk of having to spend a bit more souls on repair if carelessly overused instead of just not working. That might lead to people not using WAs even in duels due to the necessity of constant restocks.

Originally posted by Shadowcon66:

Durability inside of Dark Souls 3 is worthless, and there's no threat of weapon-breakage.
Even in Dark Souls 1 with me reaching end-game, I got a warning for my Estoc.

And... you just rested at the bonfire and fixed your Estoc, right? I'd rather do without the risk of breaking weapon that brings nothing to the actual combat and is only something to check on between engagements.

I think WAs should not use anything other than stamina, but be balanced so that they will be punishable if spammed carelessly in PvP and will be of situational use in PvE. Like the transformation attacks and transformed L2s, if we refer to BB - a special attack with special properties, but not limited in the number of uses if you have the stamina (and if it won't kill you in some cases).

[iLuvKoRn]

Originally posted by Iris of the White:

Originally posted by Shadowcon66:

It encouraged players to use more than one type of weapon; instead of using that same singular weapon over and over again (which really encouraged weapon variety).

More than encouraging weapon variety, that forces people to split (or farm) upgrade materials in order to have a backup weapon that won't get used outside of necessity and would be viewed as a forced hindrance rather than provided variety. People that intend to use multiple weapons from the start will use all of those regardless of durability.

Not necessarily as hindering as you'd think, but rather you're going to end up using different types of weapons to begin with; and it already offsets durability penalties.
Dark Souls 2 had also emphasized on damage types, between physical types.
Slash attacks, Thrust attacks and Strike attacks.
You're already going to stock up on different equipment due to these factors.
Similar to how people would also carry around different elementally infused weapons, or
having different weapons infused with either Bleed or Poison.
It mutually promoted using different weapons, while off-setting durability.

Although, I can't deny that forcing people to stock up a ton of repair powder, or piling up a bunch of weapons can be a total hindrance.
I'd disagree that gaining Upgrade Materials is as tedious though.
The Bellkeeper covenant gives you Shards, Chunks, and maybe Slabs.
I'll address more on that later on.

Originally posted by Iris of the White:

Originally posted by Shadowcon66:

It's the same thing for Weapon Arts in Dark Souls 3.

And I ended up very rarely, if ever, using WAs in PvE, precisely because they are limited in the number of uses from bonfire to bonfire, and I can't use them freely - so I end up oversaving them in usual gameplay and only occasionally using them purely for style points. If they were to consume durability as well as FP, I think I would never used them at all.

The only time and places that anyone uses Weapon Arts in Dark Souls 3 is in PvP.
That, or sometimes in rare moments against certain bosses.
Thank Goodness though that the MLGS' weapon art doesn't use durability.

Originally posted by Iris of the White:

Originally posted by Shadowcon66:

Due to how Dark Souls 3 had adopted Bloodborne's standard of maximum capacity, we would have even more reasons to support the allowance of having a bunch of weapons like Axes, Hammers and the likes to use up Durability; because of the fact that we can't stock up on 99 repair powders anymore; unlike the way we were allowed to before.

So... if we were to implement that, what exactly would stop people from buying storage capacity of Repair Powders and spamming them to get a shitload of WA uses per restock as you still get like 20 of Powders in your pockets? As the Powders are independent of Estus, it will be basically free, as farming souls is not a problem - only an additional chore that would have to be performed a bit more frequently.
If we instead cut the amount of Repair Powders that you can carry, you'll end up with the current situation for people who don't allot Ashen Estus. Very small limit on amount of uses per restock + risk of having to spend a bit more souls on repair if carelessly overused instead of just not working. That might lead to people not using WAs even in duels due to the necessity of constant restocks.

There's actually a few good points being made here.
Firstly, I'd agree that the stock count of Repair Powder is too high.
I myself would vouch for the stock count to be lowered down to 5.
They should only be as much as Resins, Charms, and others.

One objection I'll have to make is that they're very easy to get.
You're going to end up having a ton of souls anyway, especially in NG+.
I was able to buy 600 of each elemental Resin type, no farming required.
As I said before though, there are plenty of other weapons that shouldn't be dependent on using up Durability for Weapon Arts, like the Stance WA.
Anyways, I do agree on the point about the limitation leading to people not using WA's (even in duels) due to the fact that constant re-stocking of Repair Powders required.
Perhaps that the strongest point of having Ashen Estus in PvP is use within duels.

However, I do have two suggestions to help counter these issues.
Firstly, the death of an enemy phantom or invader should refill durability.
Secondly, items would be re-stocked upon enemy phantom or invader death.
These two concepts are based off of receiving Estus over enemy player deaths.
The Durability-refill part would especially negate on having to rely on Repair Powder, if you're actively either doing duels in Fight-Clubs or getting invaded.

Originally posted by Iris of the White:

Originally posted by Shadowcon66:

Durability inside of Dark Souls 3 is worthless, and there's no threat of weapon-breakage.
Even in Dark Souls 1 with me reaching end-game, I got a warning for my Estoc.

And... you just rested at the bonfire and fixed your Estoc, right? I'd rather do without the risk of breaking weapon that brings nothing to the actual combat and is only something to check on between engagements.

I think WAs should not use anything other than stamina, but be balanced so that they will be punishable if spammed carelessly in PvP and will be of situational use in PvE. Like the transformation attacks and transformed L2s, if we refer to BB - a special attack with special properties, but not limited in the number of uses if you have the stamina (and if it won't kill you in some cases).

Dark Souls 1 rarely ever has moments of durability problems.
That time my Estoc was beginning to wear down up to Kiln was the only time that a "normal weapon" was wearing down under "normal circumstances".
Sometimes, I did make plenty of uses with 99 repair powders on the MLGS.
Other times, it's going to be one of those big ol' Squidbillies inside of Lost Izalith.
Having the Durability mechanic is one of the greatest ways to off-set spamming.

I'd like to clarify that I wouldn't have the FP meter around, at all.
This is to clear the possible confusion WA's using up both Durability and FP.
Anyways, I'd agree on having some WA's not using anything other than Stamina.
There's actually a decent amount of WA's that should only use stamina to begin with.
Weapon Arts like Stance, Charge, Shield Splitter, and others like them.
They should essentially be treated as a moveset extention, like the Majestic Greatsword.
There's actually a funny way to balance the Stance Weapon Art based on this.
I think you might like it yourself since you too, are looking for ways to incorporate WA's that only use Stamina, and balanced so they can be punished if spammed carelessly in PvP while also being of useful in numerous PvE situations.
For this example, I'd like to take the StraightSword / GreatSword stance skill.

While holding down L2, you can either tap or charge R1/R2.
If you tap R1, it would be about as effective like without having FP.
If you charge R1, then it would have the same power as having FP for proper use.
You can apply the same concept to the R2 functions of the weapon.
Due to how predictable it can be to charge attacks, it would be fair.
Perhaps much more fair than the system we currently have, perhaps.

After clarifying that I said there wouldn't be an FP meter, it also means that Spells would revert back to being based on Classic Spell-Count. That doesn't mean that they would have no use for Simple Infusions though. I've got a plan for that, but I've written too much; and might need to make more responses before touching up on that.

[Jim Bob]

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Many computer users run a modified version of the GNU system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of GNU which is widely used today is often called "Linux", and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the GNU system, developed by the GNU Project.

There really is a Linux, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine's resources to the other programs that you run. The kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Linux is normally used in combination with the GNU operating system: the whole system is basically GNU with Linux added, or GNU/Linux. All the so-called "Linux" distributions are really distributions of GNU/Linux.

[iLuvKoRn]

Originally posted by Shadowcon66:

After clarifying that I said there wouldn't be an FP meter, it also means that Spells would revert back to being based on Classic Spell-Count. That doesn't mean that they would have no use for Simple Infusions though. I've got a plan for that, but I've written too much; and might need to make more responses before touching up on that.

Alrighty, here's my concept.
Spell-casts are reverted back to its classic form with DS1/DS2.
Additionally, each spell will have its own durability meter.
It means that you can still have Simple infused weapons to regenerate at least one spell.
I think that this might be a little more balanced, too.

[cheese.9898]

The word meme was coined by Richard Dawkins in his 1976 book The Selfish Gene, as an attempt to explain the way cultural information spreads; Internet memes are a subset of this general meme concept specific to the culture and environment of the Internet. The concept of the Internet meme was first proposed by Mike Godwin in the June 1993 issue of Wired. In 2013 Dawkins characterized an Internet meme as being a meme deliberately altered by human creativity—distinguished from biological genes and Dawkins' pre-Internet concept of a meme which involved mutation by random change and spreading through accurate replication as in Darwinian selection. Dawkins explained that Internet memes are thus a "hijacking of the original idea", the very idea of a meme having mutated and evolved in this new direction. Further, Internet memes carry an additional property that ordinary memes do not—Internet memes leave a footprint in the media through which they propagate (for example, social networks) that renders them traceable and analyzable.

[Bonzi]

Originally posted by Shadowcon66:

Originally posted by Shadowcon66:

After clarifying that I said there wouldn't be an FP meter, it also means that Spells would revert back to being based on Classic Spell-Count. That doesn't mean that they would have no use for Simple Infusions though. I've got a plan for that, but I've written too much; and might need to make more responses before touching up on that.

Alrighty, here's my concept.
Spell-casts are reverted back to its classic form with DS1/DS2.
Additionally, each spell will have its own durability meter.
It means that you can still have Simple infused weapons to regenerate at least one spell.
I think that this might be a little more balanced, too.

>each spell has a use-count each bonfire and still uses FP
>Casters now need both attunement and faith/int but still have a maximum number of casts.
t.qualityshitter butthurt after losing to a wizard/pyromancer

[Iri]

Two random ideas:

1) Remove Ashen Estus and make FP regenerate at a slow rate, with the rate being a set % of the FP maximum per tick instead of set FP amount. That will prevent excessive WA and spell spam without making them limited per restock (and make WAs useful in PvE, as FP will recharge fast enough to recover between engagements if you're playing at a normal pace), and investment into ATT will be more worthwhile, as it will boost your effective FP recovery rate too.

2) Instead of the current Estus allotation system, make player have the same max number of Estus charges that can be used as either normal or Ashen Estus. So, for example, out of 5 Estus you have you can heal once, restore FP twice, heal once more - and after this you will still be able to either heal or restore FP once, but not both.

[iLuvKoRn]

Originally posted by Iris of the White:

Two random ideas:

1) Remove Ashen Estus and make FP regenerate at a slow rate, with the rate being a set % of the FP maximum per tick instead of set FP amount. That will prevent excessive WA and spell spam without making them limited per restock (and make WAs useful in PvE, as FP will recharge fast enough to recover between engagements if you're playing at a normal pace), and investment into ATT will be more worthwhile, as it will boost your effective FP recovery rate too.

2) Instead of the current Estus allotation system, make player have the same max number of Estus charges that can be used as either normal or Ashen Estus. So, for example, out of 5 Estus you have you can heal once, restore FP twice, heal once more - and after this you will still be able to either heal or restore FP once, but not both.

I think that if we had something similar to Wilted Dusk herbs from DS2 to be used in the same vein as repair powder, I think it can work if you had to give the Handmaid umbral ash.

[Iri]

Why do you like consumables so much?
If you want to put a limit on something, forcing players to farm/stock on an item (that I assume can be used without any limits other than just running out of them) doesn't seem like a good way to go about it to me. But hell, I hate using any kind of non-autorefill (Estus-like) consumable in any game, no matter how easy it can be to get or what benefits it can give me, and I don't even really know why, so maybe I can see your point if you explain the idea behind it in more detail.