Straight Swords are NOT the best weapon class

[Call Sign: Raven]

Here are some points to consider, you salty ♥♥♥♥s. This is meant to inspire discussion. If you do not have something to add to this discussion, with data or personal experience to back it up, then buzz off. I pulled all my data from personal playtime, and the Mugenmonkey character planner, which has data for all +10 weapons and all their infusions. I have over 1200 hours in Dark Souls 1 and Dark Souls 2 each, 600 hours in Demon's Souls and 600 hours in Dark Souls 3. I am far from inexperienced. Read on!

1. They are easy to pick up and use for new players, hence, they become very common.

2. In PvE, they literally just chip away at bosses HP, unless you use certain exploits such as bleed with Anri's Sword and very high luck to boost damage. There are other exploits as well, such as using lightning buffs, as almost all the bosses are weak against lightning.

3. They have NO hyper armor, except in a very small frame during certain battle arts. This is a huge disadvantage. With my Flamberge, I ALWAYS beat straight sword users because a straight sword is a pressure weapon; it is NOT designed to trade hits with larger weapons.

4. They are predictable. Straight swords are just parry bait for experienced players. A new player might get wrecked by a straight sword, but all you have to do to beat them is literally hold up a shield and tread backwards. Their lack of range gets nullified. I do this all the time, and it works brilliantly in invasion style PvP.

5. In PvP, most straight sword users are VERY impatient. You can capitalize on this behavior by turtling or rolling a lot to make the other player make a mistake.

6. Their damage is not that great when compared to other weapons. I've seen people make the wild claim that straight swords have the same damage as greatswords. Here's some data: My Astora Straight Sword +2 deals between 90-110 per hit, based on the armor of my opponent in PvP. With my Flamberge +2, I can get as little as 150 and up to 170 per hit, depending on my opponents armor. That's 60 damage more per hit, plus I get hyper armor for using the Flamberge, PLUS it's really hard to parry a greatsword because the parry window is much smaller than the straight sword.

7. Another point on damage: At 40/40, a refined Lothric Sword +10 gets 413 AR. That's a huge amount of AR, considering it's a straightsword, but look at this: the refined Flamberge with the same stats gets 494 AR, plus it has hyper armor and bleed. A Refined Claymore gets 509 AR, and a Refined Zweihander gets 565 AR. When people say, "straightswords do the same damage as greatswords," it makes me cringe because they obviously haven't looked at numbers at all.

8. Straightswords get crappy damage on criticals. At +2, the Astora Straightsword I use in PvP gets around 260-350 for a critical. My Flamberge gets over 400, sometimes close to 500 at +2!! That's a huge difference!

Here are some better weapons to use in PvP than a straightsword, based on experience.

1. A club or an axe. Damage-wise, they are close to straightswords, yet slower, but slower is good! In PvP, I find that people have a really hard time parrying me when I use an axe or a club, because everyone is so twitchy and aggressive that when presented with something a little slower, it throws them off. I have never been parried while using my Reinforced Club.

2. Two handing a greatsword/ultragreatsword. Trading hits is amazing due to the hyper armor. When I use a straight sword and I got against a great/ultragreatsword, I don't wonder if I can beat the player; I wonder if I can beat the hyper armor. It's tough for small weapons to do so! It takes a lot of patience.

3. Twinswords. In my opinion, they make better pressure weapons than straightswords. In PvE, I have the highest stagger rate with the Sellsword Twinblades than with any other weapon because of all the extra hits they are able to pull off.

4. Katanas. Oh man, don't get me started on these. The katana's running attack is by far the best attack in the game. It's amazing for punishing estus users, and in PvE the enemies all bleed really fast when you bump up your luck stat. It's even more alarming how fast you will bleed things when you add a Carthus Rouge. My Uchigatana playthroughs ALWAYS trivialize the bosses in this game. It's quite amazing!

5. Red Hilted Halberd. Let me say, in PvP, this weapon is a really tough one to go against. People spam the battle art and wreck me if I'm not careful. The temporary poise is really strong and a worthy opponent.

Final thoughts: Straightswords are good for raw damage and a certain amount of speed, but perks gained by other weapons far outweighs them, especially in the hands of experienced players. Straightswords are the easiest weapon to use, hence why they are so common in PvP, but they are not the best. There are too many other choices that offer better perks like hyper armor or bleed or range. If all you are concerned with is something easy to use, then pick a straightsword and prepare for salt. If you want more variety in gameplay, this game delivers...you just have to be willing to experiment and give things a try instead of just denouncing all weapons and praising the straight sword. There are many better weapons! I have used them, and you can too!

[Iri]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Harrison Ford:

What you do is you purposefully trade hits. Their sword can't keep up with yours in terms of pure damage output. Works everytime, for me!

Well, I can't trade hits with somebody who doesn't ever come into the range of my sword (or instantly rolls away when I get close on my own) or ever attack first so I can try to predict and hypertrade with that.

[√íllen†]

Początkowo opublikowane przez TrueArchery:

Greatswords can absolutely be parried 2h...

Never ever I've been parried while 2handing my Claymore/Bastard Sword. Gonna do some digging since we have an dissagreement here.

[TrueArchery]

Początkowo opublikowane przez VillenT:

Początkowo opublikowane przez TrueArchery:

Greatswords can absolutely be parried 2h...

Never ever I've been parried while 2handing my Claymore/Bastard Sword. Gonna do some digging since we have an dissagreement here.

I did it. I got parried myself.

Done.

[Snooze]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Sir Noble:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Harrison Ford:

You obviously haven't been parried when someone is facing away from you. The common knowledge of dead angles? Give me a break! The common player has no idea what you are talking about. Dead angling doesn't matter, because as long as you are within the parry window, you will be parried.

Straightswords do not outmatch greatswords, objectively. If that were the case, I would always lose when I face someone with a straightsword when I use my Flamberge. Sorry, but the hyper armor makes it all too easy to take out straightsword users.

Test it yourself do the 3Rd hit straight sword R1 spam parry and then Try it while turning 90 degrees, you will not get parried.

Also the two handed attacks can be turned 180 degrees so that the sword doesn't even seem to hit the enemy but they still take damage and get hit.

Then the person is failing the parry; IDK If you know this, but parries are 360 degrees in DS3, You can parry people behind you as long as you parry at the right time.

Deadangle is only good against people who are turtling with a shield that can't parry, otherwise you're baiting yourself to be parried.

Also; Get a caestus, and 2 hand that ♥♥♥♥♥. Run around using perseverance and punch people. You'll beat 100% of all straight sword users.

[Cooman]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Sir Noble:

Początkowo opublikowane przez ocoo:

hollowslayer has the nickname machine gun for a reason. it's hyper armor is so instant the second you hit r1, I will too, and I'll stun you for a second hit.

also, it's r2 poke has immense range and damage.

I press R1, you see that and press R1, I roll away because my swing is quicker and started before yours, you take 1 straight sword R1, I roll away without taking damage.

This is how fights between longsword and hollow slayer go for me.

I won't deny that it does have insane hyper armour (which will likely get patched)
But currently speed is king. That's why I'd say CCS is the best weapon in game on a normal connection. But with lag it's the standard halberd because if you trade then the enemy is staggered ko my enough to hit them again so you take one hit but get 3 hits garenteed and the first one is a counter.

Again, I'm not trying to bash the O.P. He used his personal experience and I'm adding in mine for discussion sake

Maybe if someone has the reactions of a sloth. if if hit r1 just after you I'll land my hit....

[Call Sign: Raven]

Just started a new game today, and currently I have 28 Strength, 30 Dex, and a Refined Greatsword +9, and I have 545 AR. Yes, straightswords ojectively outclass great/ultragreatswords...yawn...

[Call Sign: Raven]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Iris of the White:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Harrison Ford:

What you do is you purposefully trade hits. Their sword can't keep up with yours in terms of pure damage output. Works everytime, for me!

Well, I can't trade hits with somebody who doesn't ever come into the range of my sword (or instantly rolls away when I get close on my own) or ever attack first so I can try to predict and hypertrade with that.

In that case, fight very defensively and patiently. Wait the opponent out, and look for him to make an error in timing, distance, or footwork.

[Cooman]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Harrison Ford:

Just started a new game today, and currently I have 28 Strength, 30 Dex, and a Refined Greatsword +9, and I have 545 AR. Yes, straightswords ojectively outclass great/ultragreatswords...yawn...

use a shriving stone, with no infusion it has has higher AR than refined on a quality build. trust me.

[Iri]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Harrison Ford:

In that case, fight very defensively and patiently. Wait the opponent out, and look for him to make an error in timing, distance, or footwork.

So, the only way to beat them is to play really lame?.. Shit. Guess I'll keep trying to find another way that doesn't involve outlaming them.
What Greatswords lack in general is the ability to quickly close the distance with an attack. L2-R2 doesn't have enough range to really be useful for that, and spring attacks are kinda slow in both execution speed and movement speed.

[Call Sign: Raven]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Iris of the White:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Harrison Ford:

In that case, fight very defensively and patiently. Wait the opponent out, and look for him to make an error in timing, distance, or footwork.

So, the only way to beat them is to play really lame?.. Shit. Guess I'll keep trying to find another way that doesn't involve outlaming them.
What Greatswords lack in general is the ability to quickly close the distance with an attack. L2-R2 doesn't have enough range to really be useful for that, and spring attacks are kinda slow in both execution speed and movement speed.

Playing defensive is not lame...why the hell would that be lame? You prefer running in with reckless abandon and getting killed?

[Iri]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Harrison Ford:

Playing defensive is not lame...why the hell would that be lame? You prefer running in with reckless abandon and getting killed?

Because it usually has absence of action as it's basis.
If you put two aggressive fighters against each other, you get a somewhat short (depends), but highly action-packed fight where two players test their skills of prediction, evasion and chase against each other.
If you put two defensive fighters against each other, you get several minutes of... nothing. Circling, baits that nobody takes, projectile spam. Either player is trying to outwait the other, relying on them doing something.
I'm not running in trying to get killed, I'm running in to force my opponent to act in some way, and from there I either continue the chain, attempting to catch their evasion or counter their retaliation, or retreat momentarily, recovering stamina to reengage, if the action the opponent took is unfavorable to try to capitalize on. I don't want to wait for them to do something while not taking any action of my own.

[Call Sign: Raven]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Sir Noble:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Harrison Ford:

Just started a new game today, and currently I have 28 Strength, 30 Dex, and a Refined Greatsword +9, and I have 545 AR. Yes, straightswords ojectively outclass great/ultragreatswords...yawn...

I Dont mean damage wise when I say that, I just mean range to damage and speed combined.
Obviously an ultra greatsword is going to do more damage than a longsword but good luck hitting anyone with it because again, 1 R1 then roll away

I hit them with it all the time.

[Call Sign: Raven]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Iris of the White:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Harrison Ford:

Playing defensive is not lame...why the hell would that be lame? You prefer running in with reckless abandon and getting killed?

Because it usually has absence of action as it's basis.
If you put two aggressive fighters against each other, you get a somewhat short (depends), but highly action-packed fight where two players test their skills of prediction, evasion and chase against each other.
If you put two defensive fighters against each other, you get several minutes of... nothing. Circling, baits that nobody takes, projectile spam. Either player is trying to outwait the other, relying on them doing something.
I'm not running in trying to get killed, I'm running in to force my opponent to act in some way, and from there I either continue the chain, attempting to catch their evasion or counter their retaliation, or retreat momentarily, recovering stamina to reengage, if the action the opponent took is unfavorable to try to capitalize on. I don't want to wait for them to do something while not taking any action of my own.

There is no such thing as abscence of action. You just need to be more patient.

[karkied]

idk man.... the fact that straight sword weapon type has broken straight sword in it just makes it... the best..

[Jendex]

I didn't bother reading all the meta comments saying "OMGGGEEEE BUT STRAIGHTSWORDS RELLY R MOST POWERFUL CUZ EVERYTHING ELSE SUX" so...

I'm just going to respond to the OP of the OP.

I agree entirely with everything you said, and I've actually had this exact argument with other friends where I've said some of the same things you pointed out. I'm glad you made this post! I have had a ton of fun trying out all sorts of weapon types and builds, and I think that straight swords users are incredibly easy to beat by parrying and the hyper armor of the heavy weapons.

Rock on, I'm glad someone else has actually been able to enjoy the various weapon types and playstyle variability the game offers. :)