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Are you certain? I had a look at some tournament use of the GL (more on that later), and I saw a running attack like once. It didn't seem very usable at all, save as a finisher. I think part of it is that it's a multi-hit attack, so you cannot trade if you want to do anything approaching reasonable damage with it. It's also even more backstabbable than the spear, which you note is a serious concern.
(also, are you sure it starts instantly? Iirc from watching some hitbox vids it alternates between a damaging hit and a stagger effect, and I think it starts with the latter).
I don't quite understand why you think spear running attacks are hard to repeat? Just sprint -> poke, back up, and do it again.
As for backstabs, if you're getting consistently backstabbed on a spear running attack, and particularly on the running attack of a spear as long as the Plow, you're being really predictable and that's on you.
The speed feels very comparable; iirc isn't it like a 2ish frame difference (30 on the katana vs 32 on the spear or something?)
Regardless, the katana is quite literally identical in speed to an offstoc poke. People are not able to consistently reaction roll that, and in my personal experience, the spear is also too fast for even good players to always dodge. I'm looking for video footage of this now (iirc there was a good duel with a plow + handaxe mirror match I saw once that demonstrates this well), but my intuition and experience are telling me it's just too fast.
I could just be bad tho; I'll see if I can find that clip so I'm talking out my ass less.
Really? This list says it's got an R1 -> R2, same as the Pike. Is it out of date?
I read that clarification and thought you were literally just ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ with me. A shield poke? Meta & defining weapon trait? in DS3?
Then I looked up some tournament footage and it turns out that you're right lmao. I would never have expected that; I guess at high levels of play it's really hard to put enough pressure on people to make it the bad idea it is in general play.
That said, I'm still not convinced that it's worth giving up the better spear running attack and faster spear standing R1 for that combo alone. Even in tournament level play, it seems to struggle heavily against shields; BBANISHING has a couple fights against what look to me like weaker opponents with their GL build, and at several points they're basically reduced to beating on them with a Caestus because the shield is shutting them down so hard. The slower R1s also seem to be a real problem; there's a great example of this combining unfavorably at 2:28:52ish, where this guy with the RKS and a LKGS just gets right in their face and bullies them out of a swing. Similar story against a Dark Sword and GoG player at another point.
The thing that interests me most is this video, which was the best shield poke example I could find. Both players are top notch duelists and are sweating their asses off, but the weapon selection is...just...what?
Gael's, Splitleaf, and the Greatlance?
It weirds me out because I have no idea why these things are being used instead of, like, Murky, so I'm not quite sure if there were gear restrictions in place that lead to these loadouts or if this really is like the top-top tier meta and I just have no clue why.
While this is true in a general sense, it's not a universal constant. Sometimes there's extenuating factors. A good (if really extreme) example is the DSA in low level play, which has a ♥♥♥♥ moveset and mediocre reach but just does so much damage that it works regardless.
It seems like what's happening with the GL is that it's being used because the shield poke is very fast and very safe...but it's a tactic I've never used, and one I've never fought myself, so take this with a grain of salt.
The DSA works even against good opponents. Of course, you need to pair it with something (offstoc, offhandaxe, xbow, whatever) so you're not fighting with literally just an axe, but once you do...
Think about it. A large axe like the DSA has 500 ms startup time, where a SS has 470 (source). It's a 30 ms difference, which is like 1.8 frames. That's slightly under katana speed; not great, but not, like, unusably bad. It's also only 0.5 SP shorter than a longsword, a perfectly usable weapon. (source)
Essentially, you're playing with a rather short katana. Not great, but not really that awful. Now add a fast offhand. Suddenly, your whiff punishing and ability to contest are excellent; there's only two weapon classes in the game faster than it.
What do you end up lacking? Initiation, mostly. And some mixup potential, because your R2 is bad and your weapon a little short. The gap between, say, a RGCS or sword & board and the DSA is truly not that great when the latter is set up properly. And it has an absolutely absurd damage advantage over every small weapon that competes against it; with most, I would bet without having done the math that it's somewhere around 2 to 1.5 times the damage, and it has the added benefit of bleeding through most shields and targeting what's often one of the weaker elemental absorptions.
Like, yeah, in terms of landing hits it isn't as good as SS + Offstoc, or any of the ghru weapons. But I don't think it's so much worse that your opponent could land double the blows at skill parity.
This all also doesn't touch upon how, in an invasion setting, your moveset > reach > damage hierarchy is even further challenged by the advantages having higher damage provides, like better heal punishes and the ability to put people away more easily.
Also CSS is the best spear for both pve and pvp.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2KXqgg7vSQ
about DSA vs SS:
SS
- SS has backswing
- Better r1s
- The r2 is actually decent (the poke one)
- The rolling attack can help you sometimes (the poke one again lol)
- Depending in which is SS you're using, it might have better range
- If using a stance SS, you have a way better matchup against hyperarmor
DSA
- Better damage
- It might be longer depending on which SS you want to compare it to
Estoc by itself is an A tier weapon, that's why a dual wield setup with offstoc can compete against meta.
Wait what? Really?
Do you have a source for that? It really doesn't feel like ultra hitstun to me.
Offstoc does make most everything better, but in this case I feel there's a real difference between Offstoc elevating something that fundamentally isn't good and Offstoc combining with the strengths and weaknesses of the mainhand to create something stronger than the sum of its parts. The DSA + Offstoc combo is competitive with other similar combos, like Ghru spear + Offstoc or ISS/LS + Offstoc. A setup with DSA is competitive with the meta setups; offstoc and say, a mace, would not be.
I don't think Stance is valuable enough to really make the hyperarmor match way better. The DSA is already passively making a fight vs most meaningfully dangerous hyperarmor weapons better by virtue of making trades less efficient, and at these very low levels, FP is limited enough that you're likely to run dry after using that technique a few times. It helps, but I would argue that the DSA setup is just better regardless because your whiff punishes, which are the principal way in which one fights hyperarmor weapons, are going to just be straight up better than the SS.
The straightsword almost certainly has better range, because almost all of the ones shorter than a DSA are non meta options at any level on any build anyways.
These are all accurate statements. But in most cases, the difference isn't that great, and it doesn't matter for several aspects of combat. Yes, the R1s and rolling attacks are better...but that doesn't help you deter aggression or whiff punish. And they aren't that much better. The range is better...but not that much better. The speed is better....but only by two frames. They're situational, moderate advantages against the enormous and near omnipresent advantage of deleting a fourth of your opponent's HP every time you connect with the mainhand.
But I'm tired of talking out my ass and saying "well it does a lot more damage." How much more damage? Let's find out.
Let's take this SL 30 +4 twink[soulsplanner.com] as the build. Using Kaeporo's Damage Calculator, I'm going to find out how much damage a GPR buffed DSA does compared to a HPR buffed Longsword of equal WUL.
DSA AR: 190 phs, 147 + 90 lightning
LS AR: 215 phys + 95 dark
DSA damage: 77 phys + 127 lightning = 204 total
LS damage: 93 phys + 26 dark = 119 total
The DSA does 1.71ish times the damage of the LS. That's an utterly enormous advantage...and this is towards the upper limit of low level play. It's even more comparatively powerful at 15 +1/2 and 20 +2.
In this matchup, the length difference is near negligible. SSs where that advantage is accentuated, like Gotthard's or the RKSS, are at an even greater disadvantage because they have lower natural ARs or can't be buffed with resins.
Yeah, backswing is nice, but how many hits does it get you in a standard match? One or two? How many R2s would you land that couldn't be done by the DSA + Offstoc combo against the same mistake? Probably not enough.
Oh, and just for fun I also calculated a heavy Claymore:
Heavy Claymore: 129 phys + 26 dark = 155 total
The DSA only loses that trade by about 100 points of damage. It can trade with the Claymore on 2 out of every 3 attacks and still tie. That is how much of a stupidly broken stat stick it is.
Backswings are one of the things that make SS good, you can get them somewhat consistently through good spacing and positioning, they're the way to actually deal damage using SS without whiff punishing your opponent or trading since straight swords themselves are easy to reaction roll.
Backswings are essential when fighting a good/top player.
I said SS r2 is decent because it is a situational move, you can use it to whiff punish, roll catch, you can as well use it to catch people offguard after rolling and having them to expect you to throw a rolling attack so they can whiff punish it but you do the r2 instead and protects you from aggression, the rolling poke can also help you to escape from aggression.
Iirc, Distant said 1h spears r2 have ultra hitstun uncharged
But as I note, this is low level, where you stand to run out of FP even in a duel. It's a surety in an invasion.
Beyond that, as I note with the damage comparison, the DSA closes the gap by naturally making trading less advantageous.
Also who TF runs Splitleaf in the low level meta? Very high stat investment (it weighs 13.5 ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ units lmao) for good damage and unrivaled stamina-guzzling. At least you can buff it, I guess?
Are you certain it's consistent, intentional, and impactful enough to be meaningful? Iirc in the sword and board tournament footage I watched it wasn't really being relied upon that heavily. It's gotten very late now; I'll see if I can find the vid some other time.
If you're going to whiff punish, the R2 is only very rarely superior to the Estoc; most of the time the slow startup makes the Estoc poke superior. Rollcatching is also doable via the Estoc; you'd have to be in just the right spot if a SS R2 would connect but not the poke. I just don't think it comes up often enough to be worth the damage loss.
As for deterring aggression, the DSA just inherently does that better by the massively heightened threat of trading into it, similar to how dangerous it is to try and punish, say, Splitleaf WA.
Oh, the R2s lol. That makes more sense; I was a little leery of the idea that the R1s were doing ultra stagger.
There's barely footage of this player but his name is Value, he's pretty known exactly for his backswings as he manages to get them pretty consistently.
No one good, not even Gabri and Jeenine "the best greatlance player" has ever said greatlance is better than spears, most if not all of the good players do actually think the opposite and for a good reason...
So, have you ever fight a good/top player at all with greatlance and spears long enough? and also, are you literally any good to begin with?
Yeah i'm considered good by the community, if you've played good players, wouldn't mind giving names?
I've played myself top tier players and happens that i play most of the time with one of them, what about you?
I've played Gabri, Aether, Value, Furyx, Pepp, Grim, Kheim and some other less known yet good players.
SO here's the thing, you use greatlance i use good weapons, try to win out of 5 matches, after that i use plow and you use meta and i do the same simply as that, at the end we can fight each other with plow and greatlance.
No broken stuff allowed like RKSS RC, quickstep, 30 ebolts, pers spam, unfaltering prayer LA, regen, fire surge, hsm and pivot cancels.
That's all about it )
Value is new on PC, he won a tourney very recently, while he has done tournaments on xbox where he has even won with broken straight sword lmao, he has been only in 3 pc tournaments, 2 being 2v2s and one being the 1v1 which he won. He does very well against all the players on PC, he destroys grim, he can beat Kheims pkcs with snb and he has played very good players as well like Furyx, Aether and Pepp.
Pepp is considered the best invader along with jeenine, he's actually good friends with him. I'm not sure about how much 1v1 tournaments he has been in but he has played a bunch of 2v2 tournaments, he won the one he teamed with Furyx and he played in one along with Aether as team. He participated in the champion ashes mod tournament and got 2nd place, fighting Aether in the finals.