What's this about shields being nerfed compared to DS1/2?

[granada777]

I read several comments to the effect of "armor and shields are worthless in DS3, unlike DS1/2. Just lightroll".

Is this still the case in 2021? What's wrong with shields compared to previous games? From looking at the wiki I see stability and physdef on medium shields is about the same as DS2. What is it that makes them worse?

[robert.]

enemies in DS3 are faster and take away more stamina when you are holding shield

[granada777]

Originally posted by Solaire of Astora:

enemies in DS3 are faster and take away more stamina when you are holding shield

Even if they're faster, wouldn't holding up the shield just before they strike, then immediately hitting back, work like it did in DS1/2?

Magic Shield adds 18 stability and 33% extra damage absorb for 60sec, and only requires 10 INT. With Simple infusion on a shield to regenerate focus points, wouldn't this make shields viable?

[ressenmacher]

The "shields got nerfed" thing is really the combination of many different factors.

First, in both PvP and PvE, backstabs became harder to pull off (because of the two hit confirmation and greater tendency for enemies to move around). This made the strategy of circle strafe backstabbing with a shield up weaker.

Secondly, in PvP, elemental melee builds (i.e. builds that level Int, Fth, or a combination of the two and use weapons infused with Lightning, Dark, Chaos, or Crystal Gems) were substantially buffed. These weapons will do significant damage through most shields in the game, which as I recall wasn't as strong a strategy in the first two games.

Third, DS3 rolling is the strongest iteration of that move in the entire series (yes, even Bloodborne because of how roll poise and instability damage work). Shields didn't get a buff like that, which means rolling became a stronger competitor, indirectly making shields less useful.

Fourth, many enemies now have very long combos and moves that specifically target people who like to circle strafe or turtle op. It is less frequent than ever that you will be guardbroken and go unpunished, and there's a whole suite of moves that you actually have to turn your brain on and roll or face huge stamina damage (Gundyr's kick, shield bashes, the thousand new grabs added in this one, etc).

All of this isn't to say that shields aren't still useable and even very good under some situations. The BKS and LKS are staple PvP picks in certain matchups, and some of the greatshields can trivialize most of the PvE (until you get to TRC and Midir's head flying over you makes you turn around so he can insert his entire fist up your backside). But they aren't as powerful and brainless as they were in DS1 especially.

[Sauro]

Originally posted by ressenmacher:

The "shields got nerfed" thing is really the combination of many different factors.

First, in both PvP and PvE, backstabs became harder to pull off (because of the two hit confirmation and greater tendency for enemies to move around). This made the strategy of circle strafe backstabbing with a shield up weaker.

Secondly, in PvP, elemental melee builds (i.e. builds that level Int, Fth, or a combination of the two and use weapons infused with Lightning, Dark, Chaos, or Crystal Gems) were substantially buffed. These weapons will do significant damage through most shields in the game, which as I recall wasn't as strong a strategy in the first two games.

Third, DS3 rolling is the strongest iteration of that move in the entire series (yes, even Bloodborne because of how roll poise and instability damage work). Shields didn't get a buff like that, which means rolling became a stronger competitor, indirectly making shields less useful.

Fourth, many enemies now have very long combos and moves that specifically target people who like to circle strafe or turtle op. It is less frequent than ever that you will be guardbroken and go unpunished, and there's a whole suite of moves that you actually have to turn your brain on and roll or face huge stamina damage (Gundyr's kick, shield bashes, the thousand new grabs added in this one, etc).

All of this isn't to say that shields aren't still useable and even very good under some situations. The BKS and LKS are staple PvP picks in certain matchups, and some of the greatshields can trivialize most of the PvE (until you get to TRC and Midir's head flying over you makes you turn around so he can insert his entire fist up your backside). But they aren't as powerful and brainless as they were in DS1 especially.

Pretty much this.

I would only like to add that there are, indeed, instances where a shield will come very much so in handy in PvE, against several foes that lack elemental damage and heavy punishing moves (though naturally, you should put the shield down between hits to recover stamina). I find some enemies to be easier to block and punish than to try rolling around, such as most Hollow enemies, sword-and-board Lothric Knights, Outrider Knights (might be just me but trying to dodge them is a nightmare; I have the best results when circle-strafing them nonstop, for some reason), all kinds of crabs (especially so that you'll be safe until they perform the attack where they lift their bodies up and slam down; in case you didn't know, if you press R1 when they're winding that up, you'll get a free riposte on their underbelly, which can be baited and repeated ad nauseam), etc.

For PvP, you should always use shields cautiously, but there will be many players using purely physical weapons, especially below ~120, and being able to do setup parries (block the first R1 hit, parry the second, or block two and parry the third, depending on what weapon you're against). And as a rule of thumb, blocking a hit and then dodging is safer even against elemental infusions, in case you're caught in a pinch and can't dodge immediately for whatever reason. Aditionally, Lothric Knight Shield's excellent Stability and obscene Lighting damage reduction make it ideal for shutting down Miracle casters and Lightning Arrow spammers, as long as you can afford to wield it.

[kamikazi21358]

I think shields were their best in DS1, but DS2 and DS3 they’re still good and about equal I believe. Some of the small shields in DS3 I think are less, and DS2 you could upgrade your shield’s stats other than just stability, I miss that, but DS3 shields are also really good and having varying weapon skills is better imo, since you can choose between parrying* and shield bash and using a weapon skill.

*Which one thing compared to DS1, parrying is a lot harder tbf.


The armor is true mostly, just wearing armor is important in DS3, but the effects are rather minor overall. The difference is really only noticable when wearing very light armor comparing to really heavy armor, (although this does mean you can choose more based on fashion with less consequences to the other games), and poise only works when attacking as hyper armor compared to the previous games. In dark souls 1 you can tank a boss hit with enough armor, in dark souls 3 you can be stunlocked by daggers while wearing armor carved out of a literal boulder.

Armor seems worse imo, but shields don’t overall, it just feels less like ‘shields are worse’ as much as ‘light characters without shields are better now’, at least imo. Not saying they’re bad at all, but like in Dark Souls 1, in all honesty it’s quite noticable trying to play without a shield, shields are simply amazing and playing without one takes way more skill, while Dark Souls 3 shields are still good, but the fast pace also makes the game really good for shieldless dodging gameplay.

This is, at least, my interpretation. Shields aren’t worse, just playing without one is better compared to previous games.

[My Name is Mud]

Originally posted by ressenmacher:

T

Third, DS3 rolling is the strongest iteration of that move in the entire series (yes, even Bloodborne because of how roll poise and instability damage work). Shields didn't get a buff like that, which means rolling became a stronger competitor, indirectly making shields less useful.

I think most of what you have to say is pretty on point but I want to add something here, which is that rolling attacks are really pretty risky to try in PVP against people who know what they are doing. Parrying rolling attacks is literally where I think people should begin learning to parry in PVP, because it's by far the easiest parry to learn. Hell, even if it's the only parry you learn, it's a good one. So on that front shields do fine.

I'm also a weirdo that thinks tower shields are criminally underused in PVP, though. And they can't parry at all.

[My Name is Mud]

Also on a first playthrough there is literally nothing wrong with finding a 100% phys block shield and leaning on it, hard. If that helps you survive, great. Do it. Just because it's not the advanced player meta, who cares? It absolutely will help, even if it's not a solve all. A lot of people misuse the term "nerf" in this game when it's really just "correcting stuff that was absurdey broken in the other games". See: Dark Souls 1 sorcery.

[Fiddler]

Base stability starts lower than DS1, and caps out lower
knight shield (for example)
ds1: goes from 56 to 70
ds3: goes from 48 to 59