Straight Swords vs Curved Swords vs Greatswords

[Mike]

After the nerf straight swords have similar speed to curved swords and a LOT more damage so why use curved swords?

On top of that, why use straight swords when there are greatswords, other than being better paired with a shield they have REALLY similar speeds, greatswords have hyperarmor and more damage as well along with longer range.

[Laati]

Origineel geplaatst door NotTheDankSoul:

Origineel geplaatst door TrueArchery:

The ♥♥♥♥ are you talking about? Buffed shield = duel charm or stall. No SS has way over 500 AR unbuffed hypermodeless etc. Dark LKS has like 500, Dark Scimitar has like 50-70 less. So pretty good. You're exaggerating waaay too much.
SS and sword and board have very good matchups overall, cs is good against the other meta stuff which is basically the best attribute something can have. Nothing stops you from using a shield + cs either, you can't block-poke either way and still get good protection and safer approaches and backstab-attempts.

BUFFED SSS can reach 750 no hypermode. And most straight swords get 500 AR+. Scimitar is below 500 if I am correct. Anyways I think even if Curved Swords are good Straight swords are better. SSs are the best weapon class in my opinion.

https://soulsplanner.com/darksouls3/10774
60 faith 50 dex.
magic clutch ring.
DMB buffed sharp longsword.

683 AR.

[i killed god]

PKCS is by far the best weapon in the game as far as PvP goes, and brings the curved sword category up tenfold alone. If curved swords were limited to scimitar and CSS, they'd be a way worse weapon class.

PKCS has outstanding range and speed, the ability to infinitely rollcatch on someone panic rolling. "Fast" curved swords also have the ability to trade faster than a straight sword and in a R1-R1 trade on a perfect connection, the curved sword will always be able to get the full double R1 combo before the straight sword can get a single hit off.

The weapon art on PKCS is also great for out-ranging larger weapons (halberds especially) when straight swords don't necessarily have a very solid answer for those weapon classes (run in with a shield up and hope to roll catch, stance through it, neither one of which is very reliable).

PKCS also gets a solid 250 damage per hit on a 27/40 build requiring no buffs whatsoever, and will absolutely shred through shields when paired with a knight slayer's ring. LKS will usually have to rely on infusions (which require more stat investment) to achieve similar/higher damage margins.

The simple fact of the matter is, a PKCS player will almost always win against a LKS player of equal skill. LKS is a better weapon for defensive play, but PKCS is much more versatile and unpredictable. There's a reason why tournament top 3s are almost always curved sword users.

The other big curved sword is Demon's Scar simply based off the fact that it has the 700+ damage black flame true combo, immediate access to fire surge (by far the best pyromancy in the game), and a pseudo combo with its WA which can deal easily over 1700 damage if you don't roll it properly.

EDIT: Oh and PKCS' WA can also cause frostbite.

[SomethingSomethingDarkside]

Origineel geplaatst door *point down*:

PKCS is by far the best weapon in the game as far as PvP goes, and brings the curved sword category up tenfold alone. If curved swords were limited to scimitar and CSS, they'd be a way worse weapon class.

PKCS has outstanding range and speed, the ability to infinitely rollcatch on someone panic rolling. "Fast" curved swords also have the ability to trade faster than a straight sword and in a R1-R1 trade on a perfect connection, the curved sword will always be able to get the full double R1 combo before the straight sword can get a single hit off.

The weapon art on PKCS is also great for out-ranging larger weapons (halberds especially) when straight swords don't necessarily have a very solid answer for those weapon classes (run in with a shield up and hope to roll catch, stance through it, neither one of which is very reliable).

PKCS also gets a solid 250 damage per hit on a 27/40 build requiring no buffs whatsoever, and will absolutely shred through shields when paired with a knight slayer's ring. LKS will usually have to rely on infusions (which require more stat investment) to achieve similar/higher damage margins.

The simple fact of the matter is, a PKCS player will almost always win against a LKS player of equal skill. LKS is a better weapon for defensive play, but PKCS is much more versatile and unpredictable. There's a reason why tournament top 3s are almost always curved sword users.

The other big curved sword is Demon's Scar simply based off the fact that it has the 700+ damage black flame true combo, immediate access to fire surge (by far the best pyromancy in the game), and a pseudo combo with its WA which can deal easily over 1700 damage if you don't roll it properly.

EDIT: Oh and PKCS' WA can also cause frostbite.

Alright.....just a few things.

How does 1 weapon bring up an entire category? When you pick up a ss, you get an ss. When you pick up a cs, you don't get the pkcs. Next up, I have no idea why you brought up roll catching along with that weapon. Roll catching ain't hard if someone panicking, and having the pkcs won't change it.

Next up. No they do. It's called being faster. The bane of larger weapons.

Next, I have no idea how your comparing weapons by dmg. But the lks gets more ar with the exact same stats. Even more if you infuse for sharp. Heck depending on the class, you might end up needing extra lvls for the 10 magic needed for the pkcs. So almost everything in that paragraph is kaka.

Everything else, no comment. I just needed to point out a few things.

[i killed god]

Alright.....just a few things.

How does 1 weapon bring up an entire category? When you pick up a ss, you get an ss. When you pick up a cs, you don't get the pkcs. Next up, I have no idea why you brought up roll catching along with that weapon. Roll catching ain't hard if someone panicking, and having the pkcs won't change it.

Next up. No they do. It's called being faster. The bane of larger weapons.

Next, I have no idea how your comparing weapons by dmg. But the lks gets more ar with the exact same stats. Even more if you infuse for sharp. Heck depending on the class, you might end up needing extra lvls for the 10 magic needed for the pkcs. So almost everything in that paragraph is kaka.

Everything else, no comment. I just needed to point out a few things.

I sense a lot of passive-aggressiveness. I recommend you chill out.

One weapon brings up a whole category because it's part of that category and happens to be an outstanding weapon; the same way daggers overall are trash but CGK is exceptionally good. When a category is considered, it has to be considered with its most efficient element in mind, as opposed to its median performance. Therefore, when comparing curved swords and straight swords, we're not comparing CMS and Broken Straight Sword, we're comparing the two top performers; in this case PKCS and LKS.

It's true that LKS will have higher AR, but on average I've seen unbuffed sharp infusion LKS do 200-240 damage per swing, whereas PKCS often gets closer to 230-270 per swing. Once again, very minimal damage differences, but still present. I'm not here to argue the AR, I'm here to argue the final damage. Also, the lowest INT for a starting class is 8, meaning stat investment for PKCS is 2 stats at most (assuming you picked a bad starting class); quite the far cry from the 30/30 required to make a Dark build efficient.

A halberd staggering R1 will be able to keep a straight sword user at bay with very little recourse, there's literally no debating this. Outspacing will never work simply because the "sweet spot" where you don't get hit but can immediately punish is the no-damage stun area.

Finally, there's literally no one who's played anywhere near a semi-competitive level that will argue against PKCS' roll catching. The weapon has obscene range and speed, and staggered R1 on someone panic rolling have the potential to infinitely hit you. Additionally, the running attack is phenomenal, whereas straight sword running attacks are mediocre at best. LKS has NOWHERE near as much roll catching capability as PKCS. There's a reason you never see LKS users slowly walk towards you as you panic roll. Another thing is this doesn't just work on the Undead Arena against 50h bik kn00p casul 123, this has literally worked on people who play competitively. I recommend you watch any of the tournaments that took place after the most recent update.

EDIT: I should probably clarify also. My original post referred to Dark/Chaos/Lightning/Crystal infusions when I spoke about higher stat investments.

[Tyler McRae]

It's all attack animations and weapon artes. The Pontiff Knight Curved Sword is a very long weapon with a great weapon arte that can easily catch some people off guard. The Demon'sScar isn't particularly strong, in terms of raw damage, but it's pure fire element is definitely something to consider, along with the ability to cast Pyromancies, -and- it's uniqeu weapon arte. All of which make it top tier. The rest of the curved swords share the Spin arte, which does a horizontal, followed by a 2nd horizontal, or a vertical swipe, depending on the sword, both of which are quite useful and deal a fair bit of damgae. And, are unparryable, for the spins. Not to mention, two-handed Curved Swords can roll-catch better than straight swords, because they break that 'roll poise' a bit better.

Straight Swords are 90% 'stance' weapon artes. This makes them all very samey, especially considering most Straight Swords have the same moveset, excepting a few. The Stance is extremely useful in breaking turtles who do nothing but block, and the hyper-armor on the stanced R1 is very useful for breaking through faster attacks. That being said, They are more useful 1-handed, but have very little poise-breaking power, meaning almost any weapon with hyper-armor can tank through a straight sword hit and come out victorious. Two-handed Straight Swords are... okay, but not a very good moveset, at least in my opinion.

It all comes down to style choices and situations. Curved Swords play their role, Straight Swords play theirs. In my opinion, Straight Swords are too strong for their own good, right now, and can decimate anybody not wielding a heavier weapon or built to counter straightt swords, but they still have their purposes beside Curved Swords. Just choose the one ya want, mate.

[SomethingSomethingDarkside]

Origineel geplaatst door *point down*:

I sense a lot of passive-aggressiveness. I recommend you chill out.

One weapon brings up a whole category because it's part of that category and happens to be an outstanding weapon; the same way daggers overall are trash but CGK is exceptionally good. When a category is considered, it has to be considered with its most efficient element in mind, as opposed to its median performance. Therefore, when comparing curved swords and straight swords, we're not comparing CMS and Broken Straight Sword, we're comparing the two top performers; in this case PKCS and LKS.

It's true that LKS will have higher AR, but on average I've seen unbuffed sharp infusion LKS do 200-240 damage per swing, whereas PKCS often gets closer to 230-270 per swing. Once again, very minimal damage differences, but still present. I'm not here to argue the AR, I'm here to argue the final damage. Also, the lowest INT for a starting class is 8, meaning stat investment for PKCS is 2 stats at most (assuming you picked a bad starting class); quite the far cry from the 30/30 required to make a Dark build efficient.

A halberd staggering R1 will be able to keep a straight sword user at bay with very little recourse, there's literally no debating this. Outspacing will never work simply because the "sweet spot" where you don't get hit but can immediately punish is the no-damage stun area.

Finally, there's literally no one who's played anywhere near a semi-competitive level that will argue against PKCS' roll catching. The weapon has obscene range and speed, and staggered R1 on someone panic rolling have the potential to infinitely hit you. Additionally, the running attack is phenomenal, whereas straight sword running attacks are mediocre at best. LKS has NOWHERE near as much roll catching capability as PKCS. There's a reason you never see LKS users slowly walk towards you as you panic roll. Another thing is this doesn't just work on the Undead Arena against 50h bik kn00p casul 123, this has literally worked on people who play competitively. I recommend you watch any of the tournaments that took place after the most recent update.

EDIT: I should probably clarify also. My original post referred to Dark/Chaos/Lightning/Crystal infusions when I spoke about higher stat investments.

I sense defensiveness. I recommend you get over it. See how easy that is to do? At any rate~

Yeaaaa no. A weapon out of it's class being good doesn't just magically bring everything else up to it's standard. I'm sorry but that ain't how it works. The weapon class is either good or it's not (which I can admit, can be subjective to some), or it has it's outliers. On the other hand, nerfs can happen because of one weapon while fudging over the rest. I honestly think it happened to cs both in this game and DS2......but don't quote me on that bit. If you are comparing the two, then compare the two. Once again, everything else isn't magically brought up to their standards because they are good. Using that logic, Painting Guardian's Curved Sword is somehow also brought up regardless of it's shortcomings because pkcs. Just no.

Next. What you claim to see personally is irrelevant. Not only that, but it would not be a constant. The two weapons have different dmg types. Last I checked, armor and the like have different defenses types. Meaning what you hit on one person, would not be the same on the other. However what is a constant is AR. And the pkcs looses both in uninfused and fused with the same stats. I'm glad your not arguing AR. Cause there is none. You can't argue final dmg, cause that would vary. Also dark build? i'm sorry but I am speaking on what you presented.

Also i'm sorry but you what? no debating? because surely I nor nobody has ever got past a halberd with an ss. Yes this is not debatable.....obviously the pkcs is the bane counter. Bruh.

Also what in sweet jesuz are you going on about? You roll catch because you catch them outside the roll. If they roll properly, you don't catch. That is why it's called a "roll catch". That's why you catch them, when panic rolling. Unless you got lag on your side. They roll your attack, you miss. That's how iframes work. You can play at whatever level you want. Don't magically change reality.

As for the clarification. Glad you clarified that. Had you said it at the time. Wouldn't have been able to say that one thing. But you didn't so I did. However it has been noted.

[i killed god]

Origineel geplaatst door SomethingSomethingDarkside:

I sense defensiveness. I recommend you get over it. See how easy that is to do? At any rate~

Yeaaaa no. A weapon out of it's class being good doesn't just magically bring everything else up to it's standard. I'm sorry but that ain't how it works. The weapon class is either good or it's not (which I can admit, can be subjective to some), or it has it's outliers. On the other hand, nerfs can happen because of one weapon while fudging over the rest. I honestly think it happened to cs both in this game and DS2......but don't quote me on that bit. If you are comparing the two, then compare the two. Once again, everything else isn't magically brought up to their standards because they are good. Using that logic, Painting Guardian's Curved Sword is somehow also brought up regardless of it's shortcomings because pkcs. Just no.

Next. What you claim to see personally is irrelevant. Not only that, but it would not be a constant. The two weapons have different dmg types. Last I checked, armor and the like have different defenses types. Meaning what you hit on one person, would not be the same on the other. However what is a constant is AR. And the pkcs looses both in uninfused and fused with the same stats. I'm glad your not arguing AR. Cause there is none. You can't argue final dmg, cause that would vary. Also dark build? i'm sorry but I am speaking on what you presented.

Also i'm sorry but you what? no debating? because surely I nor nobody has ever got past a halberd with an ss. Yes this is not debatable.....obviously the pkcs is the bane counter. Bruh.

Also what in sweet jesuz are you going on about? You roll catch because you catch them outside the roll. If they roll properly, you don't catch. That is why it's called a "roll catch". That's why you catch them, when panic rolling. Unless you got lag on your side. They roll your attack, you miss. That's how iframes work. You can play at whatever level you want. Don't magically change reality.

As for the clarification. Glad you clarified that. Had you said it at the time. Wouldn't have been able to say that one thing. But you didn't so I did. However it has been noted.

Nice strawman you got there, bud. Let me explain it to you as simply as I can so you don't misunderstand it; a weapon class is only as good as its best performing element. Here's what this DOESN'T mean: it doesn't mean that painting guardian curved sword magically improves because PKCS is good. Here's what it DOES mean: it means that when considering how good curved swords are, we'll consider its top performers (PKCS, Demon's Scar, Scimitar).

It's true that LKS deals Standard damage whereas PKCS deals Slash damage, but you being the supposed Dark Souls expert that you carry yourself as, I assumed you knew that armor having higher Slash resistance than Standard is the extreme exception (on average, the numbers are very close). What this means is most of the time when I'm hitting my PKCS, I'm dealing with Absorption that's similar to/smaller than a LKS. I literally can't explain this in any simpler fashion; and I don't have From's damage formulas handy. All I have is my anecdotal evidence, and my 40/40 quality build hits for an average of 250 with a LKS whereas my 26/40 PKCS build hits for an average of 260.

I don't know what you're really getting to here, your grammar is horrible. If you could rephrase that so I could tell you exactly why you're wrong, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks for explaining what a roll catch is, but explaining it doesn't make me wrong. It's literally impossible to chain roll catch with a straight sword for multiple reasons, whereas PKCS' insane range and speed makes it possible.

[Mike]

All I want to say is that if you match up a PKCS two hander with a dark LKS with a black knight shield along with great magic shield the dark LKS person will probably win. The range on the

PKCS's range is pretty useless against the shield, and the constant chain roll catch can be countered with a shield.

Demon Scar's only hope will be black flame, other than that the high fire resist of the black knight shield will wreck the demon scar. Also, demon scar seems slower than the PKCS.
Scimitar has trash range and a mediocre WA. It has triple A scaling giving it good damage.

The other curved swords aren't really good.

Meanwhile look at LKS, Gotthard's, SSS.

LKS can reach 500+ damage with dark damage, the best type of damage in the game. And is easy to pair with a shield making it even stronger.

Gotthard's have that one L1 -> L2 -> R2 wombo combo that deals a lot of damage. And the L1s hit hard and if I am correct R1 -> L2 is a true combo? (Correct me if wrong).

Sunlight Straight Sword... The only downside is the WA, which is also an upside. You can make this thing reach 700+ AR without hypermode with only 2 way split damage if you get lightning blade, apply it then do the WA. You get maybe 350-400 DMG a hit on people? Pair it with a shield and you got a really good build. Only downside is that when the buff wears off then your damage will really take a hit and AR drops to 300-400.

[i killed god]

PKCS will typically guard break someone in 3-4 swipes with a Knight Slayer's Ring. It's also VERY risky to guard against a chain roll catch as you might get double R1'd which will more than likely break your guard opening you up for a riposte. Honestly, BKS is the last shield I'd use against a PKCS; you want something with good parry frames and high phys block to punish R1 spam (Llewellyn or Iron Round). A LKS/BKS combo doesn't have a good answer against R1 spam from a Knight Slayer's Ring PKCS unless if you know your opponent is low on stamina.

Demon's Scar is complete garbage without Black Flame and Fire Surge, yeah. With Black Flame however, it's by far one of the most powerful weapons in the game. Scimitar's WA also true combos into R1 R1. Its range is also the same as Demon's Scar, even though it seems short. Dark Scimitar is actually a very good weapon.

SSS is gimmicky at best. Its effective AR in PVE is 680 damage at 60 FTH Yorshka's Chime buffed with WA buff. The WA buff is severely nerfed in PvP however, and its effective AR is around 580-600 (which is still insane, if only it lasted more than 45 seconds and didn't need two buffs). Doesn't have access to Stance which is arguably one of the best WAs in the game.

Gotthard's L1 hits are embarrassingly slow and getting hit by them ever is not something any semi-competent player should do. However, I do think that Gotthard is a better weapon than LKS simply because of its range and rolling 2h L1. Pretty sure R1 > L2 isn't a true combo, but R1 > L1 might be. Haven't tested it out recently.

Like I said, I'm not arguing that LKS is a bad weapon in any way. It's by far one of the best weapons in the game. All I'm saying is PKCS is more potent in the hands of a competent player.

[Mike]

Origineel geplaatst door *point down*:

PKCS will typically guard break someone in 3-4 swipes with a Knight Slayer's Ring. It's also VERY risky to guard against a chain roll catch as you might get double R1'd which will more than likely break your guard opening you up for a riposte. Honestly, BKS is the last shield I'd use against a PKCS; you want something with good parry frames and high phys block to punish R1 spam (Llewellyn or Iron Round). A LKS/BKS combo doesn't have a good answer against R1 spam from a Knight Slayer's Ring PKCS unless if you know your opponent is low on stamina.

Demon's Scar is complete garbage without Black Flame and Fire Surge, yeah. With Black Flame however, it's by far one of the most powerful weapons in the game. Scimitar's WA also true combos into R1 R1. Its range is also the same as Demon's Scar, even though it seems short. Dark Scimitar is actually a very good weapon.

SSS is gimmicky at best. Its effective AR in PVE is 680 damage at 60 FTH Yorshka's Chime buffed with WA buff. The WA buff is severely nerfed in PvP however, and its effective AR is around 580-600 (which is still insane, if only it lasted more than 45 seconds and didn't need two buffs). Doesn't have access to Stance which is arguably one of the best WAs in the game.

Gotthard's L1 hits are embarrassingly slow and getting hit by them ever is not something any semi-competent player should do. However, I do think that Gotthard is a better weapon than LKS simply because of its range and rolling 2h L1. Pretty sure R1 > L2 isn't a true combo, but R1 > L1 might be. Haven't tested it out recently.

Like I said, I'm not arguing that LKS is a bad weapon in any way. It's by far one of the best weapons in the game. All I'm saying is PKCS is more potent in the hands of a competent player.

No it won't... 69 stability with 40 END? Even with knight's ring that seems like a stretch. Along with that, why would you waste a ring slot on the knight's ring? Also, after getting hit, rolling, then blocking how would you get guard broken? You should have nearly full stamina. Along with that, you can time your rolls or attack after a roll catch. BKS is the best, parrying is an option I guess but PKCS is pretty fast so it is hard to reaction parry. Anyways, LKS has the same range if not more range than the PKCS so spacing, blocking, setup parrying with an lothric knight shield if you have one. With knight slayer's ring anything can easily break the guard. If you just turtle you will obviously get guard broken. Also I see PKCS does 200 damage yet a dark LKS does around 300-350.

I am not denying Demon Scar is top tier. However other than black flame it has no counter to black knight shield. You can just punish black flame with spacing as well. Dark scimitar is also good, but the WA is really hard to land and pretty easy to punish. And Demon Scar range isn't that good. Scimitar also does maybe 225-250 damage a hit? I'm probably wrong though but it doesn't hit anywhere near the dark LKS.

SSS does not last for 45 seconds??? Isn't it 60 seconds and like 90 or 100 seconds with lingering dragoncrest +2 if we are counting rings. Also, yeah it doesn't have stance but the buff is also pretty good. I still hit for 300+ damage and can get most people to half health with 2 R1s.

Gotthard has slow L1s but if it hits you get an insane amount of damage. Also I meant R1 -> L1 sorry about that.

Also, LKS has more damage, longer range, better weapon art (not many people will get hit by the PKCS WA), can be effectively paired with a shield.

PKCS has higher speed, allows it to roll catch and makes it good for breaking guards.

I used a LKS + BKS combo and I won a lot more than using a Demon Scar or PKCS.

[SomethingSomethingDarkside]

Origineel geplaatst door *point down*:

Nice strawman you got there, bud. Let me explain it to you as simply as I can so you don't misunderstand it; a weapon class is only as good as its best performing element. Here's what this DOESN'T mean: it doesn't mean that painting guardian curved sword magically improves because PKCS is good. Here's what it DOES mean: it means that when considering how good curved swords are, we'll consider its top performers (PKCS, Demon's Scar, Scimitar).

It's true that LKS deals Standard damage whereas PKCS deals Slash damage, but you being the supposed Dark Souls expert that you carry yourself as, I assumed you knew that armor having higher Slash resistance than Standard is the extreme exception (on average, the numbers are very close). What this means is most of the time when I'm hitting my PKCS, I'm dealing with Absorption that's similar to/smaller than a LKS. I literally can't explain this in any simpler fashion; and I don't have From's damage formulas handy. All I have is my anecdotal evidence, and my 40/40 quality build hits for an average of 250 with a LKS whereas my 26/40 PKCS build hits for an average of 260.

I don't know what you're really getting to here, your grammar is horrible. If you could rephrase that so I could tell you exactly why you're wrong, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks for explaining what a roll catch is, but explaining it doesn't make me wrong. It's literally impossible to chain roll catch with a straight sword for multiple reasons, whereas PKCS' insane range and speed makes it possible.

Yeaaa no. Still saying the same thing I said the 1st time. But now it's a "strawman"? come on now. A weapon class is as good as the weapons (pay special attention to the "s" meaning multiple). You said in quote

Origineel geplaatst door *point down*:

PKCS is by far the best weapon in the game as far as PvP goes, and brings the curved sword category up tenfold alone. If curved swords were limited to scimitar and CSS, they'd be a way worse weapon class.

The weapon class isn't bad, with or without the pkcs. Having the pkcs doesn't magically raise the entire category. It makes the pkcs good. Not the category of cs because a pkcs is not the category. It is apart of it. It's simple. If every cs was trash but the pcks. The cs remain trash outside of the pcks. That ain't a strawman, that's logic. And that same logic aligns with what I originally said before this magically became a "strawman" now.

Origineel geplaatst door SomethingSomethingDarkside:

How does 1 weapon bring up an entire category? When you pick up a ss, you get an ss. When you pick up a cs, you don't get the pkcs.

Next up, I never claimed to be an expert. Nice exaggeration for effect. I stated simple facts. More then welcome to point out where I didn't in what your speaking on. I never said what is higher, lower, nor anything else. I simply said, what you see isn't a constant because it isn't. But alright, going off what you just said. If the damage absorption was equal or very close. Then the weapon with the higher AR would deal more dmg correct? Honest question. If you have something to the contrary, then by all means, show me. Your anecdotal evidence itself is irrelevant.

My grammar is just fine. You seem to have been able to follow along thus far. But fine, will admit it got a bit sloppy there. So clarification! You made the claim that a halberd user will be able to keep an ss user at bay. No debating. That's factually incorrect. Source? anyone who has beaten an halberd user with an ss. You can try to "tell you exactly why you're wrong". Would fail, but you could certainly try.

As for the explanation. I'm glad you learned something today. I try. But you see, I never said you were wrong so no idea why you are bringing it up. In my 1st comment about it, I said it was easy to roll catch someone panicking and having a pkcs won't change that. That's not wrong. Next up I explained roll catching. Once again, that's not wrong. You will find that I tend to choose my words a wee bit more carefully. Also there you go again making false claims. It is very much possible to chain roll catch someone with a straight sword. Source? anyone who has chain roll caught someone to death with a ss.

Anything else?

[Skibidi Ohio Gyatt]

Yall need to relax.

[cridus]

Origineel geplaatst door *point down*:

It's literally impossible to chain roll catch with a straight sword for multiple reasons

Then all the times I've done it I must have been dreaming.

[i killed god]

Origineel geplaatst door NotTheDankSoul:

No it won't... 69 stability with 40 END? Even with knight's ring that seems like a stretch. Along with that, why would you waste a ring slot on the knight's ring? Also, after getting hit, rolling, then blocking how would you get guard broken? You should have nearly full stamina. Along with that, you can time your rolls or attack after a roll catch. BKS is the best, parrying is an option I guess but PKCS is pretty fast so it is hard to reaction parry. Anyways, LKS has the same range if not more range than the PKCS so spacing, blocking, setup parrying with an lothric knight shield if you have one. With knight slayer's ring anything can easily break the guard. If you just turtle you will obviously get guard broken. Also I see PKCS does 200 damage yet a dark LKS does around 300-350.

I am not denying Demon Scar is top tier. However other than black flame it has no counter to black knight shield. You can just punish black flame with spacing as well. Dark scimitar is also good, but the WA is really hard to land and pretty easy to punish. And Demon Scar range isn't that good. Scimitar also does maybe 225-250 damage a hit? I'm probably wrong though but it doesn't hit anywhere near the dark LKS.

SSS does not last for 45 seconds??? Isn't it 60 seconds and like 90 or 100 seconds with lingering dragoncrest +2 if we are counting rings. Also, yeah it doesn't have stance but the buff is also pretty good. I still hit for 300+ damage and can get most people to half health with 2 R1s.

Gotthard has slow L1s but if it hits you get an insane amount of damage. Also I meant R1 -> L1 sorry about that.

Also, LKS has more damage, longer range, better weapon art (not many people will get hit by the PKCS WA), can be effectively paired with a shield.

PKCS has higher speed, allows it to roll catch and makes it good for breaking guards.

I used a LKS + BKS combo and I won a lot more than using a Demon Scar or PKCS.

Didn't mean on someone with full stamina; I meant in the heat of battle, on average, Knight Slayer's Ring will guard break someone in 3-4 hits with a PKCS (which I assume would deal maybe 30-50% of your max stamina). You're also not "wasting" a ring slot on Knight Slayer's Ring just the same way you're not "wasting" a ring slot on a Life Ring. You don't wear it constantly, you switch to it when necessary (i.e when facing a turtle or someone who relies heavily on their shield). The presumption that switching your gear to match your foe is a "waste" is completely idiotic. I've also guard broken multiple people who relied on their shields to block my roll catches on numerous occasions. I can't tell you why or what their stamina was, I just know the facts. Also, no, LKS doesn't have ANYWHERE near as much range as PKCS and from that statement alone I can tell you have no experience with PKCS. As for the damage, I actually have tested it out a little bit and I've been playing on my PKCS build; the 260 avg. damage figure I mentioned was actually somewhat incorrect as I didn't take into account the fact I use Lloyd's Sword Ring. Without it, the actual figure is somewhat closer to 220-230, which is damage comparable to a 1h Sharp LKS. A Dark-infused LKS at 514 AR gets an average of 270 damage or so per swipe, but does require the extra stat investment I mentioned earlier.

Another thing is you don't need to reaction parry a PKCS (you can't). Most people will get trigger happy when you block them with a low stability shield like Llewellyn; all you do is block the first hit and parry the second.

Yeah, Demon's Scar's response to turtles is Black Flame, but the way you're phrasing it makes it sound like it's a weak one, when Black Flame is arguably the best way to deal with a turtle. Sure, Black Flame can be outspaced and punished (very slight margin of error, esp with a SS), but if someone's just running up to you and spamming Black Flame, they deserve to die. A good player will R1 Black Flame your shield; if you trade as they get close and fail to roll away, they have you for a clean R1 Black Flame on the second hit. If you do roll away, I guess you won the trade with ~60 damage or so. Then again, if you're turtling hardcore, I personally would just chip you for 20 damage at a time with Fire Surge until you get a little more aggressive. And while Demon's Scar's range is slightly shorter than that of LKS, its speed make up for it more than enough, and you can easily punish R1 whiffs by properly spacing them out.

Dark Scimitar and dark LKS get very similar damage, often more on the Dark Scimitar, I really have no idea where you're getting your figures from.

The WA on SSS absolutely lasts for 45 seconds, adds 2.5% actual AR in a PvP setting, and Lingering Dragoncrest Ring doesn't affect it whatsoever. For someone who pretends to be this knowledgeable in the game, you don't seem to actually know much. Your 300+ damage hits are 90% due to the buff. I've used SSS long enough on my miracle build and eventually went back to Lightning LKS simply because of how impractical SSS is; there's literally nothing that you can say that's gonna convince me that SSS is as good a weapon as you say because it isn't. A DMB buffed LKS would do more damage than a DMB buffed SSS with its WA active with comparable stat investments. I also find it funny that someone that accuses a Knight Slayer's Ring swap of being a "waste" is suddenly promoting Lingering Dragoncrest Ring.

By your rationale on Gotthard, I could make a case that Ledo's Great Hammer is the best weapon in the game, simply because if you hit only the second hit of its WA, you can true combo into a fully charged R2 for 1200+ damage. Assuming unlikely occurences and drawing direct conclusions from them as general truths is a logical fallacy.

Once again, LKS has comparable/less damage than PKCS (not enough to really make a strong case) and shorter range. WA is completely circumstantial and most people won't get hit by Stance unless you just so happen to be fighting someone using an excessively slow weapon or get lucky on the timing. The WA in PKCS is phenomenal when used properly. Once again, you're making broad subjective statements and attempting to pass them off as objective truths, and it's getting really old.

Your last point is anecdotal. I'll just retort by saying that I've won more fights with PKCS than with LKS+BKS.


EDIT: I also just tested it out on my quality build, R1 > L1 is not a true combo on Gotthard.

Origineel geplaatst door SomethingSomethingDarkside:

Yeaaa no. Still saying the same thing I said the 1st time. But now it's a "strawman"? come on now. A weapon class is as good as the weapons (pay special attention to the "s" meaning multiple). You said in quote

The weapon class isn't bad, with or without the pkcs. Having the pkcs doesn't magically raise the entire category. It makes the pkcs good. Not the category of cs because a pkcs is not the category. It is apart of it. It's simple. If every cs was trash but the pcks. The cs remain trash outside of the pcks. That ain't a strawman, that's logic. And that same logic aligns with what I originally said before this magically became a "strawman" now.

I'm not too sure why you're still arguing semantics here; I believe I've made my point more than clear enough. You keep trying to move the goalposts but here's are the facts: PKCS IS a curved sword, therefore it is a valid representative of the category. And PKCS is an outstanding weapon, and is a curved sword as well; therefore, when someone uses the blanket term curved sword and questions their effectiveness, one can respond with PKCS in mind since, once again, it is part of the category, therefore is a valid representative thereof.
A strawman is misinterpreting my argument to make one of your own; which is exactly what you did and are still doing. Instead of debating the semantics of my original post and taking my words out of context, you should probably stick to the main conversation. I'm not gonna waste any more time debating this.

Origineel geplaatst door SomethingSomethingDarkside:

Next up, I never claimed to be an expert. Nice exaggeration for effect. I stated simple facts. More then welcome to point out where I didn't in what your speaking on. I never said what is higher, lower, nor anything else. I simply said, what you see isn't a constant because it isn't. But alright, going off what you just said. If the damage absorption was equal or very close. Then the weapon with the higher AR would deal more dmg correct? Honest question. If you have something to the contrary, then by all means, show me. Your anecdotal evidence itself is irrelevant.

Unless you have the immediate damage formula at hand and can show me mathematically that more AR = more damage, then no, it's not correct. What is correct is that the same weapon with more AR will deal more damage, but you will have to concede that there's a slight difference between 600 AR on a straight sword and 600 AR on a great hammer. I'm more than willing to test out the damage with you on my quality build for both LKS and PKCS.

Origineel geplaatst door SomethingSomethingDarkside:

My grammar is just fine. You seem to have been able to follow along thus far. But fine, will admit it got a bit sloppy there. So clarification! You made the claim that a halberd user will be able to keep an ss user at bay. No debating. That's factually incorrect. Source? anyone who has beaten an halberd user with an ss. You can try to "tell you exactly why you're wrong". Would fail, but you could certainly try.

A straight sword user defeating a halberd user is literally proof of nothing. By that rationale, the fact that I once saw a UGS user completely wreck a SS user is absolute undeniable proof that UGS are better than SS. You spoke about facts in your previous paragraph and attacked my admittedly anecdotal evidence, I find it a little hypocritical that you're switching to using it yourself. Here are the facts once again: a halberd staggering R1s will be able to keep a straight sword user at bay because its effective range is far longer than a SS' and the sweet spot where a SS user can sit to be safe from damage is a stagger zone. This is not to say that a straight sword doesn't have any answer to a halberd (Stance R2 through the hit, sprint+block towards halberd user and keep pressure etc.), but you're making it seem like a SS has the direct ability to outspace and punish on a halberd, which is blatantly untrue.

Origineel geplaatst door SomethingSomethingDarkside:

As for the explanation. I'm glad you learned something today. I try. But you see, I never said you were wrong so no idea why you are bringing it up. In my 1st comment about it, I said it was easy to roll catch someone panicking and having a pkcs won't change that. That's not wrong. Next up I explained roll catching. Once again, that's not wrong. You will find that I tend to choose my words a wee bit more carefully. Also there you go again making false claims. It is very much possible to chain roll catch someone with a straight sword. Source? anyone who has chain roll caught someone to death with a ss.

Once again reverting back to anecdotal evidence after condemning it not 5 minutes earlier, shame shame. I'll repeat myself; a straight sword literally cannot chain roll catch someone panic rolling away from you because 1) it doesn't have enough range 2) it doesn't have enough speed 3) it has too much recovery frames on staggered R1. We're not even talking about Carthus Bloodring 30%< weight rolls here; the only way a SS can "chain roll catch" someone is if the person is literally rolling into your swings and you're R1 mashing. I don't normally do this but this is how confident I am that you're wrong: I challenge you to find me a single video anywhere that shows someone chain roll catching someone with a straight sword. If you're unsure what I mean, tell me and I'll make you a video showcasing my PKCS chain roll catching.

[Sabi The Worst Player Ever]

Isnt it like greatswords attack animations are clearly slower than in straight swords? Why calling it similar then?

I mean, with like 25 end, I can do 6 swings with straight sword and 4 with greatsword too and unless Im actually 2handing GS, my normal swings will get interrupted and character staggered when attacked in right time. When facing bosses, I can often strike with straight sword and quickly roll back in time when with GS I would get catch during roll attempt in similar time frame.

Unless Im missing something here.