Weapon Arts

[Semifreddo]

What are your guys thoughts on them?

I've held a small grudge against them for a while when I started PvP. Since then I've learned to counter most of them, but I still don't like the concept of artificial skill being such a big part of the games PvP environment.

The most used Weapon Art's are often R1's with complicated patterns and extended combos, which are especially useful against inexperienced players in PvP scenarios. It's these ones I dislike.

As a sidenote: because it's so powerful against inexperienced players; an invader with the Farron Greatsword in the Undead Settlement gets a Point Down from me, if I beat them.

I'm really curious whether or not anyone shares my view, or if you'd like to share your own.

[Shalashaska]

Farron Greatswords weapon art is a parry though.

[Herbalacious]

I like em. Fun to use most of the time. I don't think that using a WA should be an insta-win tho.

Splitleaf isn't an 'insta-win' everytime, but it's pretty damn close. Only takes one mistake for your opponent and they are gonna be really bummed when then see the WA from a mile away and can't do anything about it.

[Player117]

First of all, what weapon are you using, OP?

For me, at least, WAs are pretty nice additions to the game as it doesn't really limit the players' means to attack with R1 and R2. WAs like the Stance WA is really versatile. Though, I miss the mechanic where you can parry with any weapon in DS2 with the L2 button. Artificial skills or not, some of them still need to be fully understandable and mastered to reach its maximum potential.

Surely, there are WAs that I dislike because they are stupidly powerful, abuseable, or something like a "One Combo" kill e.g. Frayed Blade's WA R1, Pre-Patch BKGlaive and CGS' spin2win and what nots. While there are ways to counter such WAs, its still gives me conniptions when one cheaply spams it like it is the only way to win.

Originally posted by Herbalacious:

I don't think that using a WA should be an insta-win tho.

Ditto.

A mixed bag of feelings, sure, but I found more positives than the negatives.

Originally posted by Semifreddo:

...useful against inexperienced players in PvP scenarios. It's these ones I dislike.

True. But that is where learning experience kicks in; the said inexperienced players will eventually learn how to counter them either with the hard way or not. Just hope that your defeated opponents actually learn something from your previous encounter.

Last thing is... can you elaborate more with your statement here? I found it pretty confusing imo.

Originally posted by Semifreddo:

As a sidenote: because it's so powerful against inexperienced players; an invader with the Farron Greatsword in the Undead Settlement gets a Point Down from me, if I beat them.

[Artek [General]]

Some weapon arts are fun, some are useful, some are amazing.
Straight Sword / Greatsword "Stance" WAs are one of the best in the game.
WA R1 helps against shielded oponents greatly while WA R2 allows for easy trades with the oponent when you just NEED that one final hit.

[Semifreddo]

Originally posted by Shalashaska:

Farron Greatswords weapon art is a parry though.

I'm catered to the inexperienced players, and one such player may not be comfortable with parrying, indeed not even having a parry tool equipped.

Originally posted by Herbalacious:

I like em. Fun to use most of the time. I don't think that using a WA should be an insta-win tho.

Splitleaf isn't an 'insta-win' everytime, but it's pretty damn close. Only takes one mistake for your opponent and they are gonna be really bummed when then see the WA from a mile away and can't do anything about it.

That's another discussion, but of course I agree with you that a Weapon Art shouldn't provide an "insta-win", even though I haven't seen it happen myself.

[Semifreddo]

Originally posted by Player117:

First of all, what weapon are you using, OP?

Why?

Originally posted by Player117:

For me, at least, WAs are pretty nice additions to the game as it doesn't really limit the players' means to attack with R1 and R2. WAs like the Stance WA is really versatile. Though, I miss the mechanic where you can parry with any weapon in DS2 with the L2 button. Artificial skills or not, some of them still need to be fully understandable and mastered to reach its maximum potential.

Surely, there are WAs that I dislike because they are stupidly powerful, abuseable, or something like a "One Combo" kill e.g. Frayed Blade's WA R1, Pre-Patch BKGlaive and CGS' spin2win and what nots. While there are ways to counter such WAs, its still gives me conniptions when one cheaply spams it like it is the only way to win.

I think we can come to a fair agreement here. Weapon Arts come in both good and bad forms. Stance is one of my favorite Weapon Arts by design. The "stupidly powerful, abuseable, one combo kills" you mention, are mainly what my grudge is about. Especially considering how popular they are since they grant a significant artificial skill bonus.

Originally posted by Semifreddo:

...useful against inexperienced players in PvP scenarios. It's these ones I dislike.

True. But that is where learning experience kicks in; the said inexperienced players will eventually learn how to counter them either with the hard way or not. Just hope that your defeated opponents actually learn something from your previous encounter.[/quote]

Acknowledging the fact that a weapon may be found later in the game and used as an invader: do you still think it's right to present a player with a challenge that's not supposed to appear until later?

Last thing is... can you elaborate more with your statement here? I found it pretty confusing imo.

Originally posted by Semifreddo:

As a sidenote: because it's so powerful against inexperienced players; an invader with the Farron Greatsword in the Undead Settlement gets a Point Down from me, if I beat them.

[/quote]

It's an example of how artificial skill elements get abused in-game to kill new players and how I express my stance on it in-game. As it is a sidenote, I didn't mean to discuss it, but using it as a flavour to the text.

[ImHelping]

Dumb question on the subject of arts. I love the stance art, it's super handy in PvE and it's come in real handy in PVP at times.

But has it always been able to be parried, and I've just been super lucky in the fact nobody has ever parried my stance art attack until the other night?

(Exile armor + Dagger crit fisher build. "It's just level 60, he probably doesn't have 18 billion crit damage yet even with rings-HE DOES, HE TOTALLY DOES")

I like the style of straightswords but even in PvE I go to the plain old greatswords with stance arts so much because once you reach the midgame (so far as my recent replay goes), enemies just laugh off straight sword stance arts which really defeats the purpose of a guard break attack.

Like watching my barbed sword stance art just uselessly poke against a pontif knight's shield or Silver knight's shield, despite being able to guard break a high wall lothric knight with a broken sword. So I switch back to a claymore or flamberge and oh look, spending a chunk of FP on a wind up attack actually works again/flinches them if it hits them outside of their guard.

It just feels more satisfying to me having a functional skill art, than a more practical R1 chain. "This time, I'll stick with straight swords!... But the weapon art just gets no-sold like im fighting John Cena once I pass the Irythyl bridge..."

EDIT: I could have sworn even a Broken sword would let me guard break cathedral knights at launch (I even guard broke players with it around, not that it matters with a broken sword on the riposte. The comedy of PvP guard breaks followed up by useless riposte damage is not something one forgets.).

Now not even a +6 straight sword does the job to guard break Cathedral of the deep knights. Am I misremembering? Or did they quietly nerf stance arts below greatswords between launch and now?

[Player117]

Ah, maybe I should've asked what weapon and it's WA do you prefer instead.

Originally posted by Semifreddo:

I think we can come to a fair agreement here. Weapon Arts come in both good and bad forms. Stance is one of my favorite Weapon Arts by design. The "stupidly powerful, abuseable, one combo kills" you mention, are mainly what my grudge is about. Especially considering how popular they are since they grant a significant artificial skill bonus.

Couldn't say it better myself.

Originally posted by Semifreddo:

Acknowledging the fact that a weapon may be found later in the game and used as an invader: do you still think it's right to present a player with a challenge that's not supposed to appear until later?

Interesting question; certainly arguable. From my point of view, I think it is still alright to actually present such threat to newer players to make them wary, understand and careful on their next encounters. That is pretty much how I learn weapons' movesets and their threats in my first playthrough; through the hard way (it's Dark Souls, afterall).

I would like to see some arguments related to this very topic.

[Semifreddo]

Originally posted by Semifreddo:

Acknowledging the fact that a weapon may be found later in the game and used as an invader: do you still think it's right to present a player with a challenge that's not supposed to appear until later?

Interesting question; certainly arguable. From my point of view, I think it is still alright to actually present such threat to newer players to make them wary, understand and careful on their next encounters. That is pretty much how I learn weapons' movesets and their threats in my first playthrough; through the hard way (it's Dark Souls, afterall).

I would like to see some arguments related to this very topic. [/quote]

Yes, you'll have to encounter all weapons eventually. What matters is when. Dark Souls 3 has a learning curve, that is supposed to rise in difficulty whenever a new mechanic gets presented. Entire areas like swamps are there to introduce you to toxicity/poison, which gives you a perspective on elemental effects.

The start of the game focuses entirely on basic melee combat mechanics. Those are heavy/light attacks, backstab/riposte, running/rolling attacks and basic weapon arts.

The problem is: when should a player encounter unique weapon arts, such as Farron Greatsword's? Well, I'd argue that the player needs to have been given the chance of equipping it him/her-self first. This chance gets neglected if a weapon is used against them before progress has brought them that far.

[Pyramid Bread]

Originally posted by Semifreddo:

Yes, you'll have to encounter all weapons eventually. What matters is when. Dark Souls 3 has a learning curve, that is supposed to rise in difficulty whenever a new mechanic gets presented. Entire areas like swamps are there to introduce you to toxicity/poison, which gives you a perspective on elemental effects.

The start of the game focuses entirely on basic melee combat mechanics. Those are heavy/light attacks, backstab/riposte, running/rolling attacks and basic weapon arts.

The problem is: when should a player encounter unique weapon arts, such as Farron Greatsword's? Well, I'd argue that the player needs to have been given the chance of equipping it him/her-self first. This chance gets neglected if a weapon is used against them before progress has brought them that far.

Not sure if you've played other DS titles but it's always been this way. People will always be beating the game at low levels and taking end game gear to invade with in the first areas. Who cares if people haven't seen that gear yet. It's better they see it sooner than later, in areas where they are holding very few souls and don't have much to lose upon death anyway

[ImHelping]

While they do have some niche abilities at times, declaring Covenant equipment off limits until they themselves use it is pretty disengenuous.

"You can't use a old wolf curved sword until I use it!"
"But you never do Farron invasions"
"So... what's your point?"

[Pyramid Bread]

Anyway tbh it's cool to see exotic/late-game/dlc weapons being used by early game invaders - it makes you think "holy sheet wtf was that! I sure look forward to getting that weapon later on!"

[Artek [General]]

Originally posted by Semifreddo:

Yes, you'll have to encounter all weapons eventually. What matters is when. Dark Souls 3 has a learning curve, that is supposed to rise in difficulty whenever a new mechanic gets presented. Entire areas like swamps are there to introduce you to toxicity/poison, which gives you a perspective on elemental effects.

The start of the game focuses entirely on basic melee combat mechanics. Those are heavy/light attacks, backstab/riposte, running/rolling attacks and basic weapon arts.

The problem is: when should a player encounter unique weapon arts, such as Farron Greatsword's? Well, I'd argue that the player needs to have been given the chance of equipping it him/her-self first. This chance gets neglected if a weapon is used against them before progress has brought them that far.

I would probably partially disagree with that.
As i see it - almost every enemy in Dark Souls (including PvE) is a unique oponnent and you have to learn his moveset in order to not die to him again and again.

Take lothric knight for example. They are early game enemies, and yet they can still kicks your ass, especially spear-greatshield once. I hate them to this day still.

The problem with PvP is how in-a-moment it is. In Dark Souls your power comes from facing the same enemy multiple times in a row (sometimes for an hour straight) until you learn him front to back, but in PvP its a one-time scenario, you just have no time to adapt.

If you get invaded by Abyss Watcher (Farron GS) - that's probably the only such invader you'll face in like next 20 hours of the game. So you have no time to adapt but the current fight itself and if you wont - you'll die.

Which is probably why invasions were tunned to be in host's favor - to have more health and estus (unless the enemy is a twink) than the invader - so that even without being familiar with the opponent's weapon of choice and fighting style you still had a chance to win just because he will run out of estus faster than you are.

Not to mention that early game invasions are not glass-cannon fights like at meta level, but long stretched fights of 50 damage per hit with each oponent having 400+ health.

[Pyramid Bread]

Originally posted by ImHelping:

While they do have some niche abilities at times, declaring Covenant equipment off limits until they themselves use it is pretty disengenuous.

"You can't use a old wolf curved sword until I use it!"
"But you never do Farron invasions"
"So... what's your point?"

Yea pretty much this. If a weapon is only farmable (with very low chance of a drop) making it highly unlikely you'll ever see it, does that mean someone else can't use it against you?

[[Jintoro]]

This is one of the more interesting -and also civilised, lets not deny it- threads in a while, with going points to be made for each argument.

I very much enjoy weapon arts, particularly Stance. I once spent almost 100 hours with a single character in the arena using a straight sword's stance attacks almost exclusively, they're that fun to use and have amazing versatility as well, being only an upward thrust and a sideways slash. You can roll catch, poise-through, initiate on wake-up and much more.

On the other hand, there are these arts that involve an R1>WA>X combo which feel really unfair to play against since they are not exactly a tool to use depending on the situation but rather a weapons ultimate move, a long combo that is inescapable and often lethal. I personally despise such weapon arts that require nothing more than a simple mashing of 3 buttons and waiting for the flashy moves to end.

One way I believe these arts (splitleaf, friedes, gaels) should be reworked is removing the 3 hit como all together by altering the timing of the final move in such a way that, while it will no longer true combo with the rest, it will roll catch people who mash roll to get out of it. This opens up ways of retaliating in the form of weapons whose hyperarmor frames start early and will have to time to swing before your third attack connects with them.
(Farron GS L1 comes to mind, the first two hits are guaranteed but the third might rollcatch someone who rolls backwards to avoid it. It is a rare occurence but can happen. In addition, while parrying the first two spins is hard, especially with a bit of lag, the third hit comes significantly later and you are not stunlocked during the aerial flip, giving you some time to attempt your parry. It's a design philosophy that I'd love to see impemented on more of these insane WA weapons.)