Hybrid builds at SL 120 30/30 or 40/40?

[Sticky White Stuff]

I was asking myself this from the very start. When you are making a hybrid build FTH/DEX, INT/DEX or FTH/INT, you always go 40/40 for optimal damage, however by going that route, you can never hit the 40 Endurance points, which makes it less than ideal for swinging anything than a longsword.

Now, i won't go out of the way from the meta SL, unless people calculate it and it changes. But does sacrificing 10 points or 20 points is actually worth it? You gain less damage, around 30-50 AR overall (depending on the weapons, not the spells), but you gain more stamina, which is always worth the points.

So, do you go full 40/40, 30/40, 35/35, or 30/30? How much damage difference does that make for Pyromancer (Dark) spells, and how much damage difference is between Faith spells at 35 versus 40 FTH? People go 60, however i could never see myself going that and using the weapons i love.

Most of my hybrid builds are melee oriented, with the damage output being the element they work with + 2 spells for PvP for mixing and baiting. Thus they are not really spellcasters, however when they hit, i want them to hit hard. So ATT is another factor. I just go with 14, two slots, enough for duels, not ideal for invasions but they can work. 24 on Pyromancer.

Currently i really want that 40 endurance instead of 20. However i don't know if i sacrifice 5 points in FTH and DEX or 10 points in DEX (which decreases AR a lot more than FTH) for the sake of spell damage.

And going 30/30 on a pyromancer build, how much damage in general can i expect versus 40/40?

While i do know the game inside and out, i never tested the numbers myself apart from the rings/clutch rings (clutch rings i don't use).

This is mostly for PvP, and a hybrild build will never stack against a pure build/quality, but that isn't the point here. If someone knows some crunching info on numbers and damage when it comes to spells and what would be the most viable option, your opinion would be most welcomed.

[Hugh Mungus]

If you're more melee oriented (infused weapons) 30/30 would be ideal for a pyro, since the returns from going beyond that are minimal on most weapons.
If you main spells, go 40/40, since the returns on spell damage will be really good.

Same goes for FTH or INT only, if you main melee leave those at 40 and use the rest for your weapon stat. If you will main spells, go to 60, get the minimal stats for your prefered weapon and infuse.
For staffs with S scaling (court sorcerer), you get incredible returns on spell damage between 50-60 INT. Same applies to FTH and S scaling chimes/talismans.

That said, you should really work on your stamina management if anything under 40 END is too little for you, maybe you're too aggressive. I've been rocking 30 END on all my builds since launch and doing just fine.

EDIT: I actually don't have numbers on me other then experience. I've been playing with hybrid builds lately testing them out with the inf respec glitch and came to the conclusions above. However, this info is readily available at the wiki and DS3 reddit, I'll give it a search and post what I can find.

[Sticky White Stuff]

I hardly use infused weapons, unless the benefit from them is great (Astora GS), and i mainly use big weapons, so nothing below Greatswords interests me that much. The main scaling comes from those two stats.

At 20 END, i can swing 3 times with one dodge 2H (Moveset), which is fine, but due to the nature of the rolling speed, it makes it harder to catch people, especially since you can't outpoise them with cloth. Which is the case with Swordspear and Onxy Blade, both weapons i like very much.

If i switch to a faster weapon, then it becomes easier, but also more boring IMO.
When it comes to builds i always min-max everything to perfection so i can include fashion, which is always inspired by Bloodborne in one way or another. So all my characters are around 69%

I was thinking on testing it out and swapping save files, but even offline the main menu checks are absurd. If i had the game on PS4, i wouldn't worry too much because you can always switch them. Unlike here.

[Hugh Mungus]

Currently infusion are excellent for both PvP and PvE, specially for a pyro.
A Dark/Chaos infused Lothric Sword, at 11STR/18DEX/30INT/30FTH has 484AR. That's a lot for such a fast weapon, and that's with minimal stats. Investing a bit in DEX or more INT/FTH will make it a powerhouse.

EDIT: These two posts on reddit have quite a bit of info on spell scaling, hope they help:

https://www.reddit.com/r/darksouls3/comments/5a2ow7/spell_tools_and_spell_buff_explained/
https://www.reddit.com/r/darksouls3/comments/4gnp4b/my_exploration_into_pyromancies_vs_sorceries_vs/

That said, I personally recommend going pyro (40FTH/40INT), using prisoner's chain and minimal stats for a dark/chaos weapon of choice. Why? Because not only you have access to extremely powerfull spells and weapon (Demon's Scar FTW) but you can also use extremely well both Sorceries and Miracles with the Crystal Chime.
Just compared my FTH (Yorshka +5) and Pyro (Crystal +5) builds and the difference between a Sunlight Spear on the Firekeeper was minimal (~100 damage) wich is fine considering you'll have a much bigger repertoire with the pyro.

[TrueArchery]

Just saying that a Dark Longsword offers more bang for your buck. Only 10 in both Str and Dex needed, neglegible AR difference, no 110 crit multiplier. Different R2s and very slightly less range.
Absolutely worth the few stat points you save that way.

[Sticky White Stuff]

I tried them both, and they all well rounded weapons which are superb. Yet.. i can't let go of my Lothric's Holy Sword on my DEX/FTH (FTH does literally nothing for it) and the whole sword is just one big joke, but the weapon art is good for finishing people off at range. I never managed to pull decent damage with both blade + WA hitting at the same time.

As for the Pyro i either use the Sabre or the Demon's Scar along with the Onyx Blade, none of them need a big investment in stats and i like the movesets they provide. It just seems it can't go with anything lower than a GS on any character unless it is a side-weapon.

Guess if i manage my stamina better, i can get away with 20 END. I just played a bit too much with a MLGS 40 END and Quality Build with GS/UGS, so when switching around it feels weird.

I might try things on my own with my weapons of choice since i have rebirths left due to going super high in NG+(++++++), even just for changing small things. I don't know if the rebirth glitch still works, since i literally never used any of them.

It's not that big of a deal, hitting gold in arena is a joke, but invading is a bit tricky with those.

[Loren]

If you are meele priority go 35/35. Damage difference with 40 is not noticable. At least at Oxyn Blade.

Stamina is huge advantage. Yet learn how to manage.

[Hugh Mungus]

While you don't need 40 END, I don't know where you're getting 20 END from, you can easily get 30END on a SL120 build.

SL100, pyro start with prisoners chain:
40 VIG
24 ATN
30 END
18 DEX
30 INT
30 FTH
Rest Base

Plenty of levels to play around with that, but already a perfectly viable build.

[Loren]

I run a very similar pyro build. 14 attunement is fine. Even for invasions. If you make good use of rings that is. Switching and the like.

You don't need 40 endurance sharp. You can go 35 or similar. Just sacrifice attunement, use prisoner's chain and pump endurance. 35/35 int/faith is nice. It works like magic if you run meele pyro. Damage difference is so small.

Prisoner's chain is good for level 120. It is OP after patch. Damage difference is barely noticable. It is worth 15 levels which you need.

[ImHelping]

I expect thirst for higher than 20-24 END is because the endurance cost for casting spells is damn heavy for what they are. Considering 24 END/120 Stamina lets you R1 swing a non ultra greatsword 4-5 times. But open up with even something as basic as a fire orb and ouch.

For a reminder. Even something as basic as Fire Orb takes 45 ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ stamina to cast. Great chaos fireball is 65. Plain old baby "Fireball" is 35.

I think casually swinging a great axe two handed is something like 45, 46 stamina. While non ultra greatswords are in the mid 20s, low 30s stamina range for R1 depending on if you are one handing or two handing them. But no, the weakest pyromancer attack still takes more stamina to use than two hand R1ing a Claymore or Onyx blade.

Throw in not being able to sneak in a moment or two of stamina recovery between attacks with rapid spellcasting, unlike mixing in melee attacks.

[Loren]

I think your thirst for stamina is reasonable. However even 20 would be fine if you don't use spells. You already said you don't. So I guess your issue is with stamina management.

14 attunement is fine. You can have 24 at 120. But I advise keeping it at 14 before 100. Increase it at final stages of leveling. You can go 14 with no problem if you are meele priority.

[Sticky White Stuff]

I use spells a lot, however all my builds are melee in priority as a main source of damage. Spells are either for catching, baiting or dealing damage when they need to be. As in, i never played a pure spellcaster. But when they hit, they hit hard.

14 ATT is fine for my MLGS build which uses two baiting Dark Spells which deal heavy damage and chain, but MLGS as a primary means of dealing damage at 40 END. But for a Pyromancer and DEX/FTH? Both go to 40/40 primary because of the scaling of the weapons, such as the Swordspear/Onyx. On a FTH build, i can NOT go below 35 FTH because the main spells are Lighting Arrow/Lighting Stake. I don't know how much difference does the extra 5 FTH make, but i know Stake and the Dragonslayer WA hits super hard (680-800) at 40 FTH.

So in the end, 20 Endurance is fine if i micro-manage it, but it becomes harder when i mix spells with melee, i can't swing and bait, then delay.

I only use Prisoner's Chain on my Quality build for extra VIT (50 VIG, not that it's worth it mind you). The damage difference from absorption is minimal in PvP (20 to 40 from a charged UGS) which is a joke for such a ring in general. However as someone who uses spells, i do have to keep FAP + 3, Two Rings for % Bonus damage and either Sage or Leo/Hornet.

I have taken your input into consideration, but most of the test i will be doing is PvE, which is different from PvP damage. Maybe i just need to snag a friend to test things out how much difference does 5 or 10 points make. (Or 20 divided across INT/FTH for Dark Pyro).