What makes faith builds viable early-mid game? (Or how)

[President Donald Trump]

This is by no means me knocking faith/caster builds, I know how very strong they can be.

In Dark Souls 1 you didn't have FP but instead a limited number of casts on spells. This meant that caster builds didnt have to sacrifice estus flasks for more spells. However in dark souls 3, ya need to.

So my question is, and this coming from someone who usually runs pure str builds exclusively, how do you make faith builds viable early to mid game?

With blessed infusion being as bad as it is (on most weapons, I know how broken it can be on LKGS and the sort) and lightning infusion not being available until anor londo... do most people just run with a raw weapon + resin buffs? And I say resin buffs because you don't get lightning blade until ithryll dungeon, blessed weapon until lothric castle... however you CAN get dark blade as early as undead settlement, but I think doing so fails irinas questline (but who cares am i right).

But on to the miracles themselves, was the general idea for faith builds is that they are supposed to be dependent early game on their healing spells? You don't get your first offensive miracle until stray demon and it is actual hot garbage. And then again you don't get your first decent offensive miracle until smouldering lake, and really its not all that great for pve. Lastly, miracles cost a buttload more than sorceries and pyromancies.

So to summarize:
1. Miracles cost a ton of FP
2. Don't get good miracles until lategame
3. Don't get good infusion until late-ish game
4. Highly outclassed in pvp and pve up to a certain point by other casters. Take a look at pyromancer, by smouldering lake pyromancer has their best pyromancies. Not to mention witch's ring, great swamp ring by that point. Also pyromancer can be a jack of trades, using all three classes of spells.
5. This can be said for all three casters really but, pumping stats into attunement and int/faith early game instead of vig/end str/dex makes you pretty weak.

So to all you damn clerics out there, how do you make faith builds viable early game (whats your stat alignment looking like, weapons, gear, rings)? Are faith builds really only good endgame?

[President Donald Trump]

Oh i briefly touched on it but I'd like to add, since in dark souls 3 you have to sacrifice estus for ashen estus, and since healing spells cost a ton of FP (so therefore you are relying on FP to have say an equal amount of healing potential as a pure physical class with just regular estus, does that mean you don't use weapon arts to conserve fp?)

[Scraps]

Doing a faith build a couple times, it is easily the hardest caster build in the game to start up and get going. Early on, you'll almost never invest in Attunement, I'd say 18 for 3 slots: Heal, Lightning Spear, Situational Support Spell. Bump it to 24 for Lightning Stake or Dorhys' Gnaw around mid-game.

Weaponry is super flexible since there are very little faith-scaling weapons in early and even mid-game with Saint's Bident being the most early faith-oriented weapon you can obtain in the Cathedral of the Deep. You may as well put 40 in STR or DEX, whichever you prefer, and 40 in Faith to get the best with what miracles you have. However, you can get the best Talisman in the game fairly early via Paladin's Ashes for the Canvas Talisman. Yes, Sunlight has more Hyperarmor, but Canvas provides enough that most attacks won't phase it and has a higher spell buff, making it rather viable for a caster in PvP.

END and VIG are leveled to your preference and how comfortable you are.

Early, you're essentially a swordsman with some miracles; a battle-cleric at best, and it will remain that way until you beat the game where, as a pure caster, you can use Yorshka's Chime with Sunlight Spear.

[President Donald Trump]

Without leveling anything else, Cleric gets 40 Str/40 Faith at level 59. At the same time a warrior can get 30 vig, 24 end, 40 str at level 59.

Having to spread your levels into 2 more stats (attunement and int/faith) is already making casters underpowered early on but really having nothing to show for it as a faith build until Anor Londo/Ithryll dungeon makes me wonder - why not just got pyromancer? If you aren't going to be viable until lategame, why not just go pyromancer and not only have all the utility that faith builds have (I think that pyromancies actually scale 1.2x better with faith, though might need checking), that way you can have extremely good offensive pyromancies relatively early on.

[Scraps]

That's generally how it goes. Playing a Cleric early on is a borderline challenge run; you're purposely making the game difficult when there are better options at that point of the game. If anything, I do suggest playing as a Pyromancer unless you plan to coop a lot, then Cleric can be better with their support spells (rightfully, faith builds are generally the best for coop). As a pyromancer, this will still give you some practice on casting due to it playing a lot different than the standard melee builds.
Cleric starts becoming more worthwhile in Irythil once you have access to things like Dorhys' Gnawing, Lightning Stake, and the First Born's Ring.

[President Donald Trump]

Escrito originalmente por Anarchy:

That's generally how it goes. Playing a Cleric early on is a borderline challenge run; you're purposely making the game difficult when there are better options at that point of the game. If anything, I do suggest playing as a Pyromancer unless you plan to coop a lot, then Cleric can be better with their support spells (rightfully, faith builds are generally the best for coop). As a pyromancer, this will still give you some practice on casting due to it playing a lot different than the standard melee builds.
Cleric starts becoming more worthwhile in Irythil once you have access to things like Dorhys' Gnawing, Lightning Stake, and the First Born's Ring.

I'd argue that pyromancers even make better sunbros! I mean, though it can be a bit of a grind they actually have the best healing spell Warmth. It heals 35 hp per tick, 2100 total - doesn't even require an upgraded talisman because it doesn't benefit from any scaling. It is just that good from the start. Its faith counterpart Bountiful Light only heals 7hp per tick meaning ya gotta waste time getting healed longer. Pro's using this would be 1. no grind to get it, you can just buy it and it costs 5fp less than warmth. But thats only 5fp... Warmth heals a ton more though.

Not to mention if you have the attunement to spare, pyromancers can still use the regular healing spells such as heal/med heal and the sort. I guess you could argue that they wouldn't be as good as a cleric casting them due to having higher faith because they arent investing in intelligence but then again, wouldnt improve them by too much to be sacrificing the super strong offensive pyromancies. Even in end game Id say pyromancers would make better sunbros because at that point they would have good attunement for more spell slots, meaning healing + nukes + dark damage (black fire orb). I guess faith builds could have somewhat of the same, having sunlight spear / objectively better healing / bleed damage (eh) but really what deals more damage in pve? Lightning or fire?

I remember my first pyromancy build I ever did, putting my sign down at pontiff and just destroying him in like 10 seconds with chaos bed vestiges.

[Scraps]

Escrito originalmente por Deucey D:

really what deals more damage in pve? Lightning or fire?

At 60FTH Yorshka's Chime, and with Sunlight Spear, you can break the 1,000 damage threshold consistently in comparison to pyromacies, which I believe the strongest, Chaos Bed's Vestige's get about 900ish damage with equivalent investment. Fire is less consistent than Lightning, as more things are weak and resistant to fire than they are to lightning. Those who are resistant to lightning are often susceptible to dark / bleed. Perfect for Dorhys' Gnaw. This case is most relevant to Nameless King, and I find him easy to kill with a pure Faith caster.

[President Donald Trump]

Oh yea nameless king gets rekt by it I will say. But take into account that you get chaos bed vestiges and basically all the pyromancies at smouldering lake, so for the -100 damage tradeoff I'd say thats still a huge plus.

The real bigshot when it comes to damage though is probably the sorceror, though a lot of stuff is resistant to magic. But for bosses, GG EZ. Great soul dregs vs soul of cinder, first phase legit lasts like 3 seconds. Found that out on my most recent playthrough summoning a naked phantom lol.

[Argstein]

i assume this is just a bad idea or a pipe dream you may call it
FTH builds are probably only truly viable late-game

but try to get Great Heal/Soothing Sunlight and Lightning Arrow spell or Lightning Blade buff,
with as much FTH as you can muster...
that'd be your best bet