Can lightning spells be good?

[Foulbeast]

I continue to be underwhelmed by lightning spells. Sure they're fast but for me at 35 faith pyromancies like Chaos Bed Vestiges seem to do a lot higher damage with less of a stat requirement. Am I missing something?

[Azkeden]

Thats basically because pyromancies scaling caps on 40 int/faith, and miracles have no hard cap, but does have a soft cap at 60. So to speak, if u want to do real dmg with lightning u need 60 faith, like for spells u need 60 int

[Laughing Clown]

Well... pyromancies scale with both faith and intelligence. Are you invested in both? Then that would then explain why Chaos Bed Vestiges is doing so much more damage over you lightning spells. Now lightning spells do ridiculous damage when stats are properly invested with the right catalyst.

[Foulbeast]

Right now I'm using an upgraded canvas talisman at 35 faith, 20 int (with ring). Guess I need to push faith up to 60. Thanks guys.

[𝓡𝓮𝓽𝓻𝓸𝓒𝓪𝓽]

Faith builds can be devastating, but keep in mind you can't really use them like Pyromancies, and you have to have a fully dedicated build to get the most out of it. Get your Faith up to 60, equipt Ring of the Sun's Firstborn, Morne's Ring, and Sage Ring +2 to make them hit as hard as possible while maxing out on cast speed.

Finally, it's optional, but the regular Talisman has the same exact poise value as the Canvas Talisman while outputting a bit more damage. The best Miracles to use in my personal opinion are

1. Lightning Storm: Fantastic AOE that can stun lock opponents and has a very wide range. I've seen this do 700+ damage on a perfect hit.
   
2. Lightning Stake: Great for PVP and also absolutely melts some bosses. Can do 700+ to players foolish enough to trade with you.
   
3. Lightning Spear: Should be used as close as possible. Great for trades and boss melting. I've seen it hit for 1,100 damage.
   
4. Dorhy's Gnawing: Good for PVE mainly for bosses that are weak to Dark or Bleed damage, but can also be good for mixups in PVP.
   
5. Lightning Arrow: Arguably one of the best offensive spells in the entire game period. You can hold it indefinitely, only cost around 19FP per cast, has long range, and does around 300 damage per hit. Great for PVP and boss fights alike.
   
6. Great Heal: Not so useful in boss fights per se, but extremely good in invasions and co-op.
   
7. Wrath of the Gods: Good for trolling and knocking people off ledges to their doom. Good to use on bosses that resist both Lightning and Dark.

[MadCre8tor]

I'm currently doing invasions with a lvl50 Faith character.

Faith spells generelly have high fp cost, and yes compared to pyromancies they also have lower damage. However with faith invested you also have healing available along with many other helpful utility spells.

For damaging faith spells some of the best are lighting stake (smoldering lake) and lightning arrow (ringed city dlc) - I actually think lightning arrow is straight up op.
Out of the three 'throwable' lighting spear spells: Lighting spear, Great Lightning spear and Sunlight spear, I honestly wouldn't bother with the ordinary lighting spear - the others are okay-ish.
They are all very clearly telegraphed which makes it hard to hit with them. They are however extremely devestating at close range because what some people don't know is how all of these lighting spears deal bonus dmg at close range.

My character (40faith, Ring of the sun's firstborn, morne's ring, 4+ canvas talisman)
Deals 204 damage to a pontiff knight at longrange, but 360 at closerange.
You might argue magic is bad for melee combat, but now add the fact that the talisman weaponart allows you to cast spells with hyperarmor, making it very hard for enemies to interupt your spell cast making them a great punish tool. I killed countless ultrasword users that tried so desperately to trade with my longsword (lighting stake -> into two hits with my lighting longsword).

All other casters need to get their spells out without getting hit, making the sage's ring almost a must-pick, with a faith build you won't absolutely need it (I would either take prisoners chain or darkmoon ring over it).

Thought since I know quite a few things about faith I'd drop them all here.

[Foulbeast]

Thanks a lot all!

@ Alucard

Yeah I'm starting to understand that "fully dedicated" part. Right now my stakes and spears are doing less than 300 damage even with ROTSFB I guess because I'm half assing it a bit with the build.

@ MadCre8tor

Thanks for the tips, I guess I could try doing some mixups with lightning stake. Though I am one of those greatsword guys hah. Haven't got lightning arrow yet, maybe should find that first.

[Half dust]

Play skills should be added to 60, so as to achieve good results, less than 60, the effect should be much worse, believe in soldiers, I think it is very handsome.

[76561198836038854]

Originally posted by Laughing Clown:

Well... pyromancies scale with both faith and intelligence. Are you invested in both? Then that would then explain why Chaos Bed Vestiges is doing so much more damage over you lightning spells. Now lightning spells do ridiculous damage when stats are properly invested with the right catalyst.

No, that's just CBV. 99% of it's damage is base damage before upgrading past minimum req and a +0 pyro flame. Nearly 700 damage. It's broken as ♥♥♥♥ low levels, you pretty much oneshot most phantoms, even twinks.

[Laughing Clown]

Originally posted by True Invader:

Originally posted by Laughing Clown:

Well... pyromancies scale with both faith and intelligence. Are you invested in both? Then that would then explain why Chaos Bed Vestiges is doing so much more damage over you lightning spells. Now lightning spells do ridiculous damage when stats are properly invested with the right catalyst.

No, that's just CBV. 99% of it's damage is base damage before upgrading past minimum req and a +0 pyro flame. Nearly 700 damage. It's broken as ♥♥♥♥ low levels, you pretty much oneshot most phantoms, even twinks.

Well if it's true that it is broken then yeah.

[76561198836038854]

Originally posted by Laughing Clown:

Originally posted by True Invader:

No, that's just CBV. 99% of it's damage is base damage before upgrading past minimum req and a +0 pyro flame. Nearly 700 damage. It's broken as ♥♥♥♥ low levels, you pretty much oneshot most phantoms, even twinks.

Well if it's true that it is broken then yeah.

I got hit with it from a Darkmoon Twink who could not have been higher level then SL 30 with +3 gear. I scraped by with 50 hp from full, which is 804 on my SL 20 twink. Barely made it out alive.

[Foulbeast]

Originally posted by True Invader:

Originally posted by Laughing Clown:

Well if it's true that it is broken then yeah.

I got hit with it from a Darkmoon Twink who could not have been higher level then SL 30 with +3 gear. I scraped by with 50 hp from full, which is 804 on my SL 20 twink. Barely made it out alive.

Yeah in that case maybe its not that lightning spells suck, its just that CBV is overpowered.

[𝓡𝓮𝓽𝓻𝓸𝓒𝓪𝓽]

CBV is hands down the most broken spell in the entire game IMO. It only cost 35 FP, takes a little more than 1 second to cast, and can easily hit for 1K+ damage. It's spammy, requires no skill or brains to use, and is complete cancer. A good Pyro won't spam it like an idiot but will bait you into getting hit by it. On an Estus chug, on a predicted parry, etc...

[Scaryowl]

spells in general aren't very good in pvp, but with enough skill or enough dumb luck anything can work

[𝓡𝓮𝓽𝓻𝓸𝓒𝓪𝓽]

Originally posted by Scaryowl:

spells in general aren't very good in pvp, but with enough skill or enough dumb luck anything can work

Well, I wouldn't go as far as to say they're not good, but new players definitely can't pick them up and start smacking people in PVP immediately because there's definitely a lot to master.

Casting requires a lot of prediction and mind games, and if you mindlessly spam your spells, you won't hit anyone. Check this guy's Pyromancy footage out. I think out of the three casting classes, Pyromancy is the most noob friendly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msYkPsc2F3I

[Foulbeast]

Originally posted by Alucard:

Originally posted by Scaryowl:

spells in general aren't very good in pvp, but with enough skill or enough dumb luck anything can work

Well, I wouldn't go as far as to say they're not good, but new players definitely can't pick them up and start smacking people in PVP immediately because there's definitely a lot to master.

Casting requires a lot of prediction and mind games, and if you mindlessly spam your spells, you won't hit anyone. Check this guy's Pyromancy footage out. I think out of the three casting classes, Pyromancy is the most noob friendly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msYkPsc2F3I

Thanks for the tip, I remember having trouble with a guy who used black flame to mess with my wakeup, can definitely cause a lot of stress.