Unlimited Siegbrau Invaders

[Idle]

Does anybody else think people who use Cheat Engine to invade (whether at low or high) that give themselves a♥♥♥♥♥♥ton of Siegbraus basically no better than flat out one shotting hackers? I mean, you give yourself a total of 17 heals, even though they heal you less than estus that's still a♥♥♥♥♥♥ton of health. If you use CE to twink for builds whatever I guess, I don't respect it but as long as you don't have something that gives you a advantage that's not possible to get by running through the game on SL1. And unlimited siegbraus aren't. So, I was just wondering if it is something everyone was ok with, and i'll be told to shut up and respect it, or other people feel the same way.

[psheue]

Different people draw the line at different points. Personally, I don´t care if people dupe/use CE to spawn weapons, etc. As long as they don´t have an actual unfair advantage in a fight, I don´t care.

IMO, invaders with duped Siegbräu and Divine Blessings are kinda pathetic. But hey, all the cool youtubers do it, so it´s cool.

[Idle]

Originally posted by psheue:

Different people draw the line at different points. Personally, I don´t care if people dupe/use CE to spawn weapons, etc. As long as they don´t have an actual unfair advantage in a fight, I don´t care.

IMO, invaders with duped Siegbräu and Divine Blessings are kinda pathetic. But hey, all the cool youtubers do it, so it must be OK.

IKR, I see all these youtubers do it and everyone acts like its perfectly fine. I understand using CE for cosplays and ♥♥♥♥ but damn, you are flat out giving yourself an unobtainable legit player advantage and no one cares. It's pretty sad to me tbh. We at least shouldn't condone that and act like everyone should be doing it.

[ReBootXD]

Can’t hosts and phantoms also carry and use 10 siegbraus and a devine blessing?

[feena]

I personally don't have a problem with it.

It's a tradeable item, so CE isn't necessarily presupposed. Granted, it is easily attainable by multi-boxing or having a friend who "duped" them using save scum cheese. So, yes, it's an exploit, but of course people are going to feel differently about it since it's not really game breaking.

Regardless of the method used to obtain a huge supply, reasons I don't consider it cheating, per se (if that's what you're implying), is three fold:

First, the healing effectiveness of Siegbrau is moderate. This means each usage isn't going to provide a full health bar in healing (exception being at extremely low SL). Depending on max health, an invader may need multiple "drinks" for full HP healing.

Second, players are limited to 10 usages, afaik. Unless, in weird situations, people are dropping them for invaders mid-invasion.

Third, the first two points apply to all players, so the host will for the most part still be at the advantage: 14 estus + 10 siegbrau + 1 hp blessing + 1 fp blessing and so on (if they're far enough). Comparatively, the invader is going to have much less estus, but of course, if they're good, they'll regain heals from killing summoned phantoms. In that case, the invader is rewarded for their kill, which is fair, imo, since hosts can have potentially endless help.

Anyway, this exploit is one of the reasons why the multiplayer scene is still as strong as it is, imo. It sucks for hosts who are unprepared, but considering the toxicity of organized ganking, I can see a justification to level the playing field a bit.

[Idle]

Originally posted by ReBootXD:

Can’t hosts and phantoms also carry and use 10 siegbraus and a devine blessing?

It's not about if you're a host, phantom, or invader. To be able to use 10 Siegbrau's in every duel is just flat out an unfair advantage no legit player can get. I just said invaders because people who use CE are usually doing it to invade.

[psheue]

Originally posted by ReBootXD:

Can’t hosts and phantoms also carry and use 10 siegbraus and a devine blessing?

Of course, but for some reason I see more invaders than hosts/phantoms abusing them. It´s every bit as lame, tho.

Originally posted by Vexz:

Originally posted by psheue:

Different people draw the line at different points. Personally, I don´t care if people dupe/use CE to spawn weapons, etc. As long as they don´t have an actual unfair advantage in a fight, I don´t care.

IMO, invaders with duped Siegbräu and Divine Blessings are kinda pathetic. But hey, all the cool youtubers do it, so it must be OK.

IKR, I see all these youtubers do it and everyone acts like its perfectly fine. I understand using CE for cosplays and ♥♥♥♥ but damn, you are flat out giving yourself an unobtainable legit player advantage and no one cares. It's pretty sad to me tbh. We at least shouldn't condone that and act like everyone should be doing it.

The funny part is that even when they do that, they still act as if they´re at a disadvantage. They invade, armed to the teeth, killing newbie hosts and their phantoms and they act as if they´re somehow the underdogs and the PvEers are the scum of the earth.

It´s so sad.

[Idle]

Originally posted by catbebi:

I personally don't have a problem with it.

It's a tradeable item, so CE isn't necessarily presupposed. Granted, it is easily attainable by multi-boxing or having a friend who "duped" them using save scum cheese. So, yes, it's an exploit, but of course people are going to feel differently about it since it's not really game breaking.

Regardless of the method used to obtain a huge supply, reasons I don't consider it cheating, per se (if that's what you're implying), is three fold:

First, the healing effectiveness of Siegbrau is moderate. This means each usage isn't going to provide a full health bar in healing (exception being at extremely low SL). Depending on max health, an invader may need multiple "drinks" for full HP healing.

Second, players are limited to 10 usages, afaik. Unless, in weird situations, people are dropping them for invaders mid-invasion.

Third, the first two points apply to all players, so the host will for the most part still be at the advantage: 14 estus + 10 siegbrau + 1 hp blessing + 1 fp blessing and so on (if they're far enough). Comparatively, the invader is going to have much less estus, but of course, if they're good, they'll regain heals from killing summoned phantoms. In that case, the invader is rewarded for their kill, which is fair, imo, since hosts can have potentially endless help.

Anyway, this exploit is one of the reasons why the multiplayer scene is still as strong as it is, imo. It sucks for hosts who are unprepared, but considering the toxicity of organized ganking, I can see a justification to level the playing field a bit.

But you're missing the whole point of invasions man. You're SUPPOSED to be at a disadvantage. If Miyazaki wanted you to be on even grounds during invasions he would just give you 15 Estus. You could say well he did that because invaders don't get attacked by PVE, but if that was the case there would be no dried finger to stop that. And if there is 2 or 3 phantoms you are able to get more invaders to even out the gank.

And yea the healing is moderate, but thats why if you really are at 1 hp, all you have to do is use 1 Estus and then 3 Siegbrau's to basically get full hp. And most of the time when you heal you're at half health meaning only 2 Siegbrau's for full HP. and this is meta health we're talking about. At like SL 50 you just become an unstoppable tank with all your other CE advantages tied in there.

I get you can have your own opinion on this especially since it's become so popularized by youtubers. But you have to see that unlimited Siegbrau's and Divine blessings are OP to any legit player.

[Xengre]

Yeah I think this is kinda sad. Even my legit NG+5 SL26 +2 char has a very limited amount of Seigbru (which I don't use in pvp anyways). As almost anyone else is CE/dropped or only NG chars. That much free unearned excess healing in pvp is just going to far imo.

[Laughing Clown]

Originally posted by psheue:

Different people draw the line at different points. Personally, I don´t care if people dupe/use CE to spawn weapons, etc. As long as they don´t have an actual unfair advantage in a fight, I don´t care.

IMO, invaders with duped Siegbräu and Divine Blessings are kinda pathetic. But hey, all the cool youtubers do it, so it´s cool.

I figure ♥♥♥♥ it. The more siegbrau they use the more they prolong their ass-whoopin. It's their pain.

[ReBootXD]

Originally posted by psheue:

Originally posted by ReBootXD:

Can’t hosts and phantoms also carry and use 10 siegbraus and a devine blessing?

Of course, but for some reason I see more invaders than hosts/phantoms abusing them. It´s every bit as lame, tho.

Abuse is a bit of an overstatement, considering the game allows any and all players to carry and use 10 of them at any one time. Sure it’s low, I agree with that.

But to shame people for utilizing it is no different than complaining about people chugging during duels. It’s their game too, and they can play it as they see fit, so long as it’s within the limits of the game.

[Idle]

Originally posted by ReBootXD:

Originally posted by psheue:

Of course, but for some reason I see more invaders than hosts/phantoms abusing them. It´s every bit as lame, tho.

Abuse is a bit of an overstatement, considering the game allows any and all players to carry and use 10 of them at any one time. Sure it’s low, I agree with that.
But to shame people for utilizing it is no different than complaining about people chugging during duels. It’s their game too, and they can play it as they see fit, so long as it’s within the limits of the game.

Dude, the limits of the game are you eventually run out of them. If you actually earn 10 SiegBrau's legitly you're supoosed to have to choose when to use them carefully or else you will run out in no time. Unlimited means you can chug all 10 of those in one fight, then re invade with another 10. And you only get 3 on each playthrough, so 10 would take you 4 different playthroughs.

[ReBootXD]

Originally posted by Vexz:

Originally posted by ReBootXD:

Abuse is a bit of an overstatement, considering the game allows any and all players to carry and use 10 of them at any one time. Sure it’s low, I agree with that.
But to shame people for utilizing it is no different than complaining about people chugging during duels. It’s their game too, and they can play it as they see fit, so long as it’s within the limits of the game.

Dude, the limits of the game are you eventually run out of them. If you actually earn 10 SiegBrau's legitly you're supoosed to have to choose when to use them carefully or else you will run out in no time. Unlimited means you can chug all 10 of those in one fight, then re invade with another 10. And you only get 3 on each playthrough, so 10 would take you 4 different playthroughs.

I don’t use them nor dupe them at all, but nothing is stopping you (someone who is so concerned about it) from leveling the playing field. Dupeing isn’t hard, nor does it get you banned.

The limits of the game include the bugs that it carries. If you don’t want to utilize them, that’s fine, more power to you. But just like meta weapons, one shot builds, etc. a large portion of players will utilize it, and those who don’t will simply be at a disadvantage, a disadvantage that you can overcome with superior skill.

[feena]

Originally posted by Vexz:

But you're missing the whole point of invasions man. You're SUPPOSED to be at a disadvantage. If Miyazaki wanted you to be on even grounds during invasions he would just give you 15 Estus. You could say well he did that because invaders don't get attacked by PVE, but if that was the case there would be no dried finger to stop that. And if there is 2 or 3 phantoms you are able to get more invaders to even out the gank.

And yea the healing is moderate, but thats why if you really are at 1 hp, all you have to do is use 1 Estus and then 3 Siegbrau's to basically get full hp. And most of the time when you heal you're at half health meaning only 2 Siegbrau's for full HP. and this is meta health we're talking about. At like SL 50 you just become an unstoppable tank with all your other CE advantages tied in there.

I get you can have your own opinion on this especially since it's become so popularized by youtubers. But you have to see that unlimited Siegbrau's and Divine blessings are OP to any legit player.

Yes, invaders are inherently at a disadvantage by design, that much is obvious. In reality, though, like you mentioned, people are going to be at different points of progression. It is not the invaders fault if he is fully prepared/optimized, and the other party is not. In the same way, the host is not at fault for not being prepared to fight such invaders. There's no in-game mechanic that will balance this out. If hosts and phantoms get outplayed or outprepared, so be it. It is part of the experience. It sucks for newbie players, I agree, but it's just a game. Learn from it and move on.

Siegbrau isn't going to let you magically win/lose, by default. When experienced invaders kill newbie hosts/phantoms, often times they didn't even need to use those in the first place. Usage is sometimes more of a precautionary action, because invaders never know if some tryhard blue phantoms magically summons in (without special software, of course), or decked out sunbros are waiting in ambush.

And of course people have different approaches and philosophies in regards to multiplayer. There are no set rules. Many of those youtubers just want/like to invade. If this exploit lets them continually invade, so be it. Their priority is to invade, not to farm endlessly to do a few runs here and there. This exploit allows for sustained invasions, especially against ganks. To them, like Chasethebro, that is the function of Siegbrau.

As for CE, yeah, I'm not a fan.

Anyways, be careful out there in the jungle.

[Esdenm]

what if we got the ten seigbraus legitly?

[psheue]

Originally posted by ReBootXD:

Originally posted by psheue:

Of course, but for some reason I see more invaders than hosts/phantoms abusing them. It´s every bit as lame, tho.

Abuse is a bit of an overstatement, considering the game allows any and all players to carry and use 10 of them at any one time. Sure it’s low, I agree with that.

But to shame people for utilizing it is no different than complaining about people chugging during duels. It’s their game too, and they can play it as they see fit, so long as it’s within the limits of the game.

It is an exploit. So, it´s abuse.

As I said in my first post, different people draw the line at different points. My line is clear: I don´t care if people use CE/dupe stuff if they don´t get an advantage in a fight. Savescumming to upgrade all your weapons is an exploit, and using it is abuse. However, it doesn´t affect the outcome of a fight, at all (I´ve never seen anyone going through 15 weapons in a single match...).
Siegbräu and Divine Blessings are extremely limited and they do affect the outcome of a fight. Having an unlimited supply of these items is truly scummy.

Of course, everyone can do it without punishment but that doesn´t change the fact that, just like the Princess Ring glitch and the RoF glitch on ladders/running, IMO, duping healing items is lame and sad AF; specially if you´re an experienced player fighting against a bunch of newbies, just like the youtubers mentioned in this thread.