Offhand Weapon Art Usage

[galvanicAssaulter]

[[ https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/168566-dark-souls-iii/73736452 ]]

So I was trying to make a build when it occured to me that what I really wanted to emulate didn't exist; I can't use a dagger in my offhand for the Quickstep ability and fight with an Ultra Greatsword. I've talked about this IRL before, but does anyone have any ideas to help offer the manueverability I want while fighting up close? The biggest issue is that I have to either keep switching back and forth from either two handing the main weapon or not having the side arm at the ready.

[Parking]

God, a quickstepping UGS sounds so broken.

But uh, as for mobility, if you want to do a glass cannon where you aren't getting hit, just wear extremely light armor to keep your weight below 30%. This will make your rolls go farther. You can couple this with the carthus bloodring, but that got nerfed so the vuln up on an already unarmored character might not be worth it.

[galvanicAssaulter]

I can imagine it would be an epidemic, yeah. But I want something like the Farron Greatsword with a touch less flair and a spot more feasibility, minus the commitment that's really just . . . two grandiose swings. Gee, notice how every other Ultra Greatsword can do that with a safer, more controlled dead angle and a fixed position without the stat investment.

It feels like such a trap for style with no real reward. Sure, the knife helps to "break poise" because of that extra initial hit but that's not really a staple of it's moveset to such a dominating degree. I would LOVE to see a weapon set like Pontiff's where it was legitimately dual-wielding a longsword and a greatsword to have the sidearm offset the main-weapon weaknesses and help either create openings or defend oneself. It's actually why I normally fight with Pike and Longsword; decent roll punish, dominating range at first blow albeit with subpar poise damage, nice range on Jumping R2 too if anyone gets too greedy with parrying. It's been really decent until someone comes with some silly and unbalanced gimmick like Armor of Thorns on Carthus Bloodring and I literally can't even touch them, even after the patch.

[galvanicAssaulter]

What I truly believe is that every Weapon Art should come in the form of a "Studied Skill Slot", something a character could learn from an NPC or see passed down from a lore standpoint in critical locations, and apply their combat styles to any weapon they can get in hand.

Something like Ricard's Lunge and Press on a Greatlance is terror.
Something like Blindspot on a Pontiff Great Scythe would promise danger.
Something like Stomp on a Tower Shield gives defense reassertion to a Tower Shield user who may have just made their first mistake in a match and could salvage a battle.

I just see so much wasted potention.

[tam_fortress]

Originally posted by X():

What I truly believe is that every Weapon Art should come in the form of a "Studied Skill Slot", something a character could learn from an NPC or see passed down from a lore standpoint in critical locations, and apply their combat styles to any weapon they can get in hand.

Something like Ricard's Lunge and Press on a Greatlance is terror.
Something like Blindspot on a Pontiff Great Scythe would promise danger.
Something like Stomp on a Tower Shield gives defense reassertion to a Tower Shield user who may have just made their first mistake in a match and could salvage a battle.

I just see so much wasted potention.

sounds like a nice game mechanic, maybe later in ds4

[AH-1 Cobra]

Yeah, the only way this would work, and not be completely broken is to have weapon type specific weapon arts. You equip a UGS, for example, and you get to choose between using one of a number of different WAs designed for that weapon. Itemize WAs like they're spells, sorta. Some special weapons could still have locked/unique WAs.

[galvanicAssaulter]

You're right to say there need to be limits, but you're wrong to say it wouldn't make a difference. This sort of liberation is the work that gives a system an air of freedom in design, as opposed to something like Marvel Versus Capcom 2 where your only sane competitive options were four well known characters, the small pool beneath them that could fly, and literally everyone else in a roster of fifty plus being useless.

Obviously you wouldn't be sensibly allowed to use the Frayed Blade's Weapon Art on a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Great Hammer. In theory a weight calculation for the weapon should be checked for offensive manuevers like that. The same could be said for things like Quickstep, where something like a Zweihander would be more profitable than a Greatsword due to comparison in weight and moveset. That's diversity and nuance at its finest. And this game skirts the edges of it, truly; the people behind it seem to have an understanding of it but don't want to over complicate the affair.

There's nothing wrong with that, and I completely understand it even, especially considering this was mostly a bookend for the series and truly designed for Single Player play with Multiplayer additives to enrich the base experience.

[AH-1 Cobra]

Curved/straight swords or Bestoc with quickstep would be insanely broken.

[galvanicAssaulter]

It'd be different, not unstoppable. Especially with FP regen something that's mostly absent in this game. It creates a similar execution to trying to bleed out the energy of a spellcaster. There are of course a myriad of balancing concerns I'm not going into the utmost depth for but by no means is the thought of a Straight Sword or Curved Sword user being quicker than perhaps a Full-Plate Great Weapon Fighter something unrealistic or unacceptable in my mind.

[galvanicAssaulter]

Firstly I've commented on the omitted details. At the current state it's almost inarguable to say that any significant, meta shifting singular change is feasible and properly balanced. This is no exception.

Secondly, your retort is tailored for upper echelon combat. For SL 50, dueling outside of Pontiff Sulyvahn's courtyard this is far less of a concern. But even more poignant to mention is that what you mentioned is /exactly/ what I aim for: variety in approach. As opposed to everyone I see charging with the Irithyll Straightsword because of its latest buff. Or the week of Exile Curved Greatsword. Things like Armor of Thorns over Carthus Bloodring are annoying, but niche. I'd rather have ninety niche and equally viable builds than five meta and three infamously unstoppable gimicks.

[TopHatPenguin]

how would that work, you could have the charge from the halbard and put it on smoughs hammer XD also it would be pretty op, just get his hammer and put the spin to win move on it

[galvanicAssaulter]

Show me a proper hit confirm for the Winged Knight Halberd Weapon Art that would realistically carry over to Smough's Greathammer and I'll be worried. Especially considering that the startup of that move is nothing notoriously quick.

Now in a team fight? Terrifying.

But either way the weapon would more realistically benefit from Spin Bash, considering it's a Strike damage type. I'd have it work akin to the Stance Weapon Art ability that intends to break guards and then have the hammer drop as a improvised riposte.

[galvanicAssaulter]

Well, for me I think I mentioned it in the first post. But I also didn't say anything about sharing weapon class, though that is a fine balance concern for both giving freedom but not letting people go absolutely wild.

Under your designs I'd probably . . . change nothing! In the past it was concerns like the Bastard Sword and the Claymore not sharing animations, but I don't have that issue with any sword and its particular Weapon Art. I remember that the Cathedral Greatsword was odd, perhaps it doesn't have a stab as it's Rolling Attack, but I have no desire to change anything the way you mentioned it. Unfortunately there just isn't enough impact for me. The various changes in Stomp per Ultra Greatsword are fine for me, and there's no singular blade I feel needs a variant more than another. Wouldn't be surprised if they just threw darts at a wall for that one.

[AH-1 Cobra]

Originally posted by Sir Noble:

What would you hope that quickstep would add to ultras?

You can use iron flesh while at a lower weight threshold, and quickstep still works when Iron flesh is up. That would open up extra hit-trading options. There are some lighter ultras like Profaned Gsword that could work with. Or Astora's.

[galvanicAssaulter]

Quickstep on Zweihander versus Stomp.
Dead angle swing for combo opposed to stab from roll.

Bait and Punish so far works wonders with Ultra Greatswords, but this would trade out trying to live through a hit in a game where such tanking is heavily unsupported with repositioning and countering.

As for Smough's Hammer? I said Charge would be senseless as opposed to Spin Bash.

[galvanicAssaulter]

I understand why Charge. I said it was senseless physically with the weapon's design.
You're not being a downer, just ceaselessly argumenative.
The design I wanted isn't something supposed to be uncounterable, it's why I ignored every comment that said it would be OP. You've more than drawn an adequate portrait of some if its flaws, such as people trying to out range it with faster weapons.

Edit:
Actually, thinking back to the Ornstein and Smough fight, I would give that weapon something like Champion's Charge, only followed with an uppercut like the Black Knight Greatsword R2.