Primordial Serpent statues in new DLC

[burn1none]

sorry if this has already been discussed but I didnt find anything on google or steam forums about the new Prinordial Serpent statues located in the Ringed City dlc that look completely different than the ones in the Grand Archives. does anyone know why the body on those statues differs so greatly from the angelic looking ones in the archives and have any of you found anything else worth mentioning regarding the serpents?

I havent gone through the dlc completely so I may have missed something super obvious but Im a little bummed that more questions from the whole series havent been answered, specifically about the serpents and what role they play exactly.

[larry]

Since serpents are imperfect dragons, I believe the primordial serpents are starting to age into proper dragons.

[Spitalett]

while the Primordial Serpents appear to be opposed to each other, they are actually working towards the same goal. Digging deep into DS1, it becomes clear that the "Chosen Undead" legend is a great big steamer, spread in order to lure hopeful undead to Lordran to be tested. Frampt only appears once an undead has proven themselves strong enough, and he then directs them to Anor Londo, and then to retrieve the Lord Souls and link the flame. The common assumption is that Gwyndolin is the mastermind behind this plan, and for the purposes of this theory I believe that he thinks he is.
In truth, the test may expand farther than even Gwyndolin is aware of, and most undead, especially those who do link the flame, still fail it. Kaathe hides in New Londo, but he doesn't reveal himself to just anyone. He only appears to a warrior who defeats the Four Kings early, who ignores instructions and sets out on their own path, someone who thinks for themself, while also demonstrating the capabilities to gather the Lord Souls and become a Dark Lord. A similar thing occurs in DS3, where Yuria only appears to the player if they've proven willing to embrace the darkness within themselves.
So, both Serpents seek a champion of sorts, but how are they related, and why does Frampt switch sides in the Dark Lord ending? Simple; the two have always been on the same side, with Frampt playing the role of a Revolver Ocelot-style double-agent. Frampt goes along with Gwyndolin's scheme to link the flame, but is secretly waiting for someone smart enough to see through the lies, at which point Kaathe appears to guide them. The quest Gwyndolin has laid out looks only for strength; the Serpent's test requires intelligence as well, to find some worthy of leading them. Even if a Chosen Undead takes Frampt's lies at face value, most of the surviving gods still end up dead to feed the Lordvessel, so it's still something of a win if the Serpents are seeking to remove their competition for power.
But why? It's clear that Kaathe, and maybe Frampt, want to bring about an Age of Dark, but I don't think we have enough information why. However, I do think we can guess why they have a need for a Dark Lord. A "toothy serpent" convinced the people of Oolacile to look into the Dark, and it went terribly. The same serpent probably later moved on to New Londo and suggested the same to the Four Kings, humans as well, but who shared a fragment of a Lord Soul between them that might protect them from corruption. That also went bad. The Dark can dangerous, and if anyone is to survive Kaathe's vision of a coming Dark Age, there must be a leader both powerful and smart enough to resist the Abyss's corruption. This is where the Dark Lord comes in, an undead who has proven themselves fit to rule. The Usurpation of the Fire seems to be a more refined form of this, likely born out of many cycles of failure; the Dark Lord/Lord of Hollows needs to take the power of the First Flame themself in order to weather the Age of Dark, in addition to being able to think for themselves.

[burn1none]

interesting theory Exo thanks for the info. any idea why we see two completely different statues though? the ones in grand archives almost look like they have the Xanthous(spelling?) garb and tiny little wings when the statues in the dlc have a completely different body type much less humanoid almost looking more like dragons with scales

[burn1none]

took some screenshots for comparison
from the DLC: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=895747956
from the base game: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=895748071

[Hexius Khan]

Just a thought, but what if the primordial serpents could potentially just want to see the fire fade because the age of dark to them could be reminiscent of the age of grey of their original dragon kin that was robbed from them by the gods.

It could also be that the gods after the war broke the serpent and subjugated them to their will, as we see they did with midir who was raised to fight the abyss eternally until it was set to consume him.

So despite their outward compliance a cabal may have formed to subvert the fire linking at some time during their servitude, or maybe the compact was there from the beginning. Darkness may not be grey but it is eternal, it grows stronger as men, children of the furtive pigmy multiply and become dominant, they might see something of the way things once were therein.

As you say they seem to work their magic into oolacile, new londo, and perhaps lothric too.

It's implied that Lothric's corruption was the result of the scholars learning seath lore, but what if the "First of the Scholars" were infact serpents initially acting in a frampt like fashion. As the fire was strong, they preached the virtue of the flame, but as it dwindled they would then whisper in secret enclaves among the scholars and then in counsel to the chosen princes of the futility of the flame. Until the time comes to act but the dogma is so entrenched no one acts. As Lothric did.

Personally I dont think frampt being a double agent is really too important a detail, because it could be simply model reuse, after all we see multiple yurias in the lord of hollow endings. And many serpents int the dark lord ending in DS1. But its obviously not no one will lose sleep if he's keeping up the appearance or if he believes what he says.

[Spitalett]

Originally posted by burn1none:

interesting theory Exo thanks for the info. any idea why we see two completely different statues though? the ones in grand archives almost look like they have the Xanthous(spelling?) garb and tiny little wings when the statues in the dlc have a completely different body type much less humanoid almost looking more like dragons with scales

Maybe evolution lol

[Molotov Milkshake]

Allow me to explain this for you:

Kaathe has influence (via the Prince's scholar) over Lothric and the Archives. Angel worship was deemed heretical (we meet the real 'angels' in the Dreg Heap). So I'd assume Kaathe is not one of them. Although it seems they come from the Hollows of Londor, and therefore dark in nature, and aligned with Kaathe, who leads the Londor Sable Church. Notice that some of the statues in the Archives also show a corrupted, abyssal-like figure holding a book. Likely the Prince's scholar. The game explains this via item descriptions found in the Archives. The statues in the archives are pretty obviously Darkstalker Kaathe with this in mind. We can't see his actual body, so we don't know what it looks like. He could just be a serpent beneath the robes. There's a good chance that Kaathe introduced King Oceiros to knowledge and worship of Seath. Here's something interesting too: the moonlight greatsword sorcery states that it is from a time before Seath, 'not long after the Beginning' (with a capital B for Beginning!). What is another term for something that has existed since the 'beginning'? 'Primordial' comes to mind.

The new statues in the Ringed City are pretty obviously Frampt, considering his close link to Gwyn, and that the Ringed City was gifted by Gwyn to the pygmies. We can clearly see the influence of Gwyn over the city via the statue of him standing over a hollow, and the overall lore of the place. The statues are a cool reveal. We can safely assume that Frampt (and assumedly the other serpents) actually had legs/arms, and were in fact closely related to the archdragons. We may not see Frampt or Kaathe again, but we know what they really look like, at least. And that's all people really wanted to know.

People are whining that there aren't any serpents in the DLC, but actually I think we've been given a fair bit of info on them throughout DS3 and the DLC. We even know how they look.

[burn1none]

Originally posted by Richard:

Allow me to explain this for you:

Kaathe has influence (via the Prince's scholar) over Lothric and the Archives. Angel worship was deemed heretical (we meet the real 'angels' in the Dreg Heap). So I'd assume Kaathe is not one of them. Although it seems they come from the Hollows of Londor, and therefore dark in nature, and aligned with Kaathe, who leads the Londor Sable Church. Notice that some of the statues in the Archives also show a corrupted, abyssal-like figure holding a book. Likely the Prince's scholar. The game explains this via item descriptions found in the Archives. The statues in the archives are pretty obviously Darkstalker Kaathe with this in mind. We can't see his actual body, so we don't know what it looks like. He could just be a serpent beneath the robes. There's a good chance that Kaathe introduced King Oceiros to knowledge and worship of Seath. Here's something interesting too: the moonlight greatsword sorcery states that it is from a time before Seath, 'not long after the Beginning' (with a capital B for Beginning!). What is another term for something that has existed since the 'beginning'? 'Primordial' comes to mind.

The new statues in the Ringed City are pretty obviously Frampt, considering his close link to Gwyn, and that the Ringed City was gifted by Gwyn to the pygmies. We can clearly see the influence of Gwyn over the city via the statue of him standing over a hollow, and the overall lore of the place. The statues are a cool reveal. We can safely assume that Frampt (and assumedly the other serpents) actually had legs/arms, and were in fact closely related to the archdragons. We may not see Frampt or Kaathe again, but we know what they really look like, at least. And that's all people really wanted to know.

People are whining that there aren't any serpents in the DLC, but actually I think we've been given a fair bit of info on them throughout DS3 and the DLC. We even know how they look.

so do you think that the Archive statues are more a representation of what Kaathe stood for rather than what he actually looked like whereas the statues in the Ringed City represent what the serpent's bodies actually looked like?