Lorian and Lothric made me put down ds3 (explanation)

[Hoppled]

Hey guys, so I'm not a souls master but I have played and beaten dark souls 1 a few years ago. Needless to say, I'm a fan of the series and dark souls 3 is quite a step up from it's predecessors in terms of performance, enemy/boss design, diverse locations and better combat and gameplay mechanics.

When I bought ds3, it was quite a rough surface at first, considering it has been years since I touched a souls game. Once I had everything down, I enjoyed the hell out of it! The first boss that really gave me a challenge was Pontiff. Pontiff took me several hours to beat. I died and I died and I died, but you know what? For some reason, I kept trying. I kept wanting to beat the boss, because I saw progression and I saw consistency with his attack patterns, etc. I wanted to beat Pontiff and be proud of it, which felt amazing!

Another boss that gave me quite a challenge was Champion Gundyr. He was very difficult I must say; but again, attack patterns and timing of rolls made me be able to finally down the sucker in a few hours. That was also a great fight.

Now for Lorian and Lothric... Let me preface it first this way: I have not attempted Lorian and Lothric nearly as many times as I have attempted Gundyr and Pontiff (2 bosses which I beat!)
Regardless, I have had quite a number of attempts on Lorian so far and it has come to the point of me QUITTING the game. I would log on to ds3 everyday and play for HOURS and now I'm at a loss of words for this abomination of a boss fight.

Yeah, dark souls always has a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ camera. Yeah, the boss fight of Lorian has epic music. Yeah, they're a cool ♥♥♥♥ing boss. But you know what? Every time I die to this boss I don't learn anything. I don't feel like he actually killed me fairly.

Let's start with the ♥♥♥♥ing horrendous camera during this boss fight and being *stuck* on pillars sometimes. I have his 1st phase attack patterns down to a T, I know EXACTLY what this ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥t boss is going to do. Yet, if the camera decides to ♥♥♥♥ up ONCE he will teleport behind me and ♥♥♥♥ my ♥♥♥♥ up. This will happen over and over and I will just .. not play anymore. You wanna know why? Because I wan't to fight a ♥♥♥♥ing boss that I can learn it's patterns and that WONT teleport behind me and unlock on out of no where.

I want a boss that isn't in a cluster ♥♥♥♥ of a room that can potentially one shot you off camera by teleporting behind you. I wan't a boss that has CONSISTENCY and not ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥t.
I never really sat down, and played for a few hours trying to beat this boss. I get discouraged each time he cheeses me out. I'm sick of it and I question those who stuck with it.

How the ♥♥♥♥ did you stand this boss? Half the fight I'm trying to lock on to the ♥♥♥♥ sucker because hes teleporting all over the place and the camera SUCKS ♥♥♥♥. It's NOT EVEN HARDER. PONTIFF AND GUNDYR ARE WAY HARDER. This boss is actually easy. Infact, I was able to almost beat him in my 2nd attempt. But the RNG, the random ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥t, terrible camera, inconsistency, etc etc etc. make this boss a ♥♥♥♥ing wash for me. I'm sorry but this is a horrendously designed boss in my opinion and I had to put down the game. I'm not going to bother over leveling, looking up guides or attempting this anymore because it's not worth my time.

It is just simply not worth my time. I will now move on to dark souls 2 instead. Look, I know you might be saying "well u suck" but I HONESTLY dont think that boss is hard. He's just not fun to fight and frustrating for no ♥♥♥♥ing reason! I understand all the combat mechanics, I can take down any mob with no problem, I dodge roll fine. Lorian and lothirc tho? Just roll a ♥♥♥♥ing coin and hope he doesn't get a cheap backstab on you randomly.

You have to be a HUGE ♥♥♥♥ing dark souls fan to stick with the boss and put up with its ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥t. How did people even say this was a good fight? It's not.

Maybe you got lucky and beat him in your first few tries. So maybe you don't remember the terrible camera and inconistency of the boss. But don't come here and tell me xyz and how easy he is if you do abc. The boss is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥t, it's like Dancer of the Boreal valley camera angles on crack. ♥♥♥♥ this game.

[GERONIMO]

Publicado originalmente por Horizons:

The problem is the teleporting and which attack he's going to do during the teleport. You never know which once he will do and the timing is ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up. This is probably why people are suggesting to use a shield. Which further proves my point. If a boss becomes incredibly easier just because you can shield attacks, means the boss is inconsistent and poorly designed. I was able to dodge roll and time attack perfectly after learning Gundyr and Pontiff. Lorian is a different story. So please ♥♥♥♥ off Geronimo considering you used a shield like a little ♥♥♥♥♥ through a playthough and expect everyone with different builds who 2 hand to ADAPT. ♥♥♥♥ off

lol im suggesting using a shield because YOU cant dodge his attacks. i dodge them just fine :)

[♫Doctor Diddlerino♫]

Publicado originalmente por Horizons:

The problem is the teleporting and which attack he's going to do during the teleport. You never know which once he will do and the timing is ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up. This is probably why people are suggesting to use a shield. Which further proves my point. If a boss becomes incredibly easier just because you can shield attacks, means the boss is inconsistent and poorly designed. I was able to dodge roll and time attack perfectly after learning Gundyr and Pontiff. Lorian is a different story. So please ♥♥♥♥ off Geronimo considering you used a shield like a little ♥♥♥♥♥ through a playthough and expect everyone with different builds who 2 hand to ADAPT. ♥♥♥♥ off

I don't know much ♥♥♥♥♥♥-speak but let me try to translate;

"I refused to use a basic and integral part of DarkSouls gameplay and became frustrated when I was unable to beat a boss whose mechanics punish my poor choice in gameplay. As such, I lash out whenever someone suggests I don't purposefully gimp myself to playing like a moron."

[Remedy]

Just as you, i do not use shields for block or parry, never did at bosses, as well as i didnt use 2h weapons in my first playthrough (as well as summons or consumables except ember): i finished all bosses solo without summons with a long sword i got when starting my knight (i made it refined+10 tho and used souls to get soul levels, etc) - so i guess i get which game you are talking about.

As for teleporting behind me, well, why not? I have invaded his room, he didnt ask for it. He chooses to teleport, why not, and he teleports behind me - I would do that too, that is the best way to teleport. And i cant clearly see him, because he is standing behind me, yes. I have to predict what he is doing, because he is doing it in a pattern - i can always dodge it.

Now, for what you said, sorry, but it all sounds like a complete nonsense, i cant even find a valid point of you to argue. You want a boss who does something else, you dont want this boss? lol? Who cares what you want, who cares if you think it is not what it is? Then, you waste time trying to lock on him? How is that his problem, how is that a problem of the encounter? If i would to waste time trying to backstab ancient wyvern, will that be a solid argument too? RNG? Well first time i wiped on him was RNG easy as ♥♥♥♥, but when i killed him it was THE WORST RNG EVER, i spent 80% of that long as hell fight trying to stay alive, pulling out dodges and ♥♥♥♥ i never thought i was capable of, i beat his worst RNG and just stood there with my shaky sweaty hands. Now, does RNG matter if some guys can kill them naked on sl 1 with any RNG given? No, it ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ does not.

tl;dr
All in all, i really have to tell, and this is sad as ♥♥♥♥ for me to tell, you just blame camera, boss designers, RNG, area, your gamestyle and anything else for not learning fast enough to be consistently stronger than anything this boss can provide, and, as any experienced DS3 player knows, there is not much this boss can offer.

[Hoppled]

Publicado originalmente por GERONIMO:

Publicado originalmente por Horizons:

The problem is the teleporting and which attack he's going to do during the teleport. You never know which once he will do and the timing is ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up. This is probably why people are suggesting to use a shield. Which further proves my point. If a boss becomes incredibly easier just because you can shield attacks, means the boss is inconsistent and poorly designed. I was able to dodge roll and time attack perfectly after learning Gundyr and Pontiff. Lorian is a different story. So please ♥♥♥♥ off Geronimo considering you used a shield like a little ♥♥♥♥♥ through a playthough and expect everyone with different builds who 2 hand to ADAPT. ♥♥♥♥ off

lol im suggesting using a shield because YOU cant dodge his attacks. i dodge them just fine :)

I can DODGE his attacks. It's the randomness of the teleport attack. He will teleport and sometimes do a quick attack and sometimes teleport and do a slow lunge attack and sometimes teleport and do nothing. So why don't you do this boss again so you can refresh yourself on how the boss actually plays out.

[Hoppled]

It's clear from software just made another boss with attack pattern mix ups just to piss you off. It's not like they even tried to make lorian and lothric so much difficult as to random and frustrating.

[GERONIMO]

Publicado originalmente por Horizons:

Publicado originalmente por GERONIMO:

lol im suggesting using a shield because YOU cant dodge his attacks. i dodge them just fine :)

I can DODGE his attacks. It's the randomness of the teleport attack. He will teleport and sometimes do a quick attack and sometimes teleport and do a slow lunge attack and sometimes teleport and do nothing. So why don't you do this boss again so you can refresh yourself on how the boss actually plays out.

if you could dodge his attacks, you would have beaten him by now and would have never started this embarrasing thread. regardless of whether or not you think this boss is unfair, clearly you CANT dodge his attacks

[Remedy]

Publicado originalmente por Horizons:

if you could dodge his attacks, you would have beaten him by now and would have never started this embarrasing thread. regardless of whether or not you think this boss is unfair, clearly you CANT dodge his attacks

This. Exactly this. There is no freaking problem with dodging any of his attacks. If one doesnt get one the correct directions and timers for a dodge, its time to go there and learn.

[Hoppled]

Publicado originalmente por GERONIMO:

Publicado originalmente por Horizons:

I can DODGE his attacks. It's the randomness of the teleport attack. He will teleport and sometimes do a quick attack and sometimes teleport and do a slow lunge attack and sometimes teleport and do nothing. So why don't you do this boss again so you can refresh yourself on how the boss actually plays out.

if you could dodge his attacks, you would have beaten him by now and would have never started this embarrasing thread. regardless of whether or not you think this boss is unfair, clearly you CANT dodge his attacks

"embarassing thread" please like I get embarassed by making a thread. I still stand by what I said. It's a poorly designed boss. Just becuase you tuft through it and beat it, doesn't mean he's a good boss.

[JimPappa]

I understand if someone says this boss is somewhat unfair. The reason is if you can't see the attack Lorian will do right after teleporting behind you. If you're a KB+m user like me and can turn the camera around instantly, it won't be much of an issue. But if you're near pillars things can go south due to the camera being nonsense.

Before anyone starts to say that I need to git gud or adapt, I've beaten this boss many times under difficult conditions.
At NG+8 solo,
At NG at SL1 solo,
At NG in a bow only run (this was the most infuriating).

Luck is also somewhat involved since sometimes Lorian teleports all over the place, sometimes he rarely teleports.

[MrMuffinz]

Publicado originalmente por Horizons:

Publicado originalmente por GERONIMO:

if you could dodge his attacks, you would have beaten him by now and would have never started this embarrasing thread. regardless of whether or not you think this boss is unfair, clearly you CANT dodge his attacks

"embarassing thread" please like I get embarassed by making a thread. I still stand by what I said. It's a poorly designed boss. Just becuase you tuft through it and beat it, doesn't mean he's a good boss.

Unpredictable =/= Poor design.
They are a perfectly fine boss.
If you can't roll properly when he teleports (I understand he does slow, fast, etc.) then i'm sorry, it's not the fault of unpredictable AI, it's you.
Every time he teleports I spam roll until I am out of range no matter if it's a slow one or not.
Listen for the teleport, immediately start rolling when you feel he's about to materialize no matter what. It's not efficient, but it works.
You don't need to lock to roll in a random direction and then turn and get your barings.
That or don't go far enough away for him to tele often.

I'll give you a poorly deisgned boss: Bed of Chaos.

Being stubborn and repeatedly telling us that the boss is poorly designed doesn't make it true, it just makes the boss more difficult.

Also it's quite the shame that L&L got your jimmies rustled, the last boss is one of the best in the series.

[Hoppled]

Publicado originalmente por Lashan.W:

I understand if someone says this boss is somewhat unfair. The reason is if you can't see the attack Lorian will do right after teleporting behind you. If you're a KB+m user like me and can turn the camera around instantly, it won't be much of an issue. But if you're near pillars things can go south due to the camera being nonsense.

Before anyone starts to say that I need to git gud or adapt, I've beaten this boss many times under difficult conditions.
At NG+8 solo,
At NG at SL1 solo,
At NG in a bow only run (this was the most infuriating).

Luck is also somewhat involved since sometimes Lorian teleports all over the place, sometimes he rarely teleports.

^^ This. Thank you.

[Firaeveus Carron]

I will sympathize with you concerning the camera angles, as being locked onto Lorian when he teleports into melee range can screw up the camera SLIGHTLY because it snaps to his new position instantly, but everything else is L2P on your part 100%. Unlock before he teleports, perhaps?

Every boss in Dark Souls has some element of RNG to their movesets. They will select from a pool of moves that are likely to hit / reach the player they decide to target before attacking. I've beaten Dark Souls III over a dozen times and the Lorian and Lothric fight is definitely not unfair. The camera and "RNG" is not as bad as you claim – you're overreacting.

You've beaten Ornstein and Smough in Dark Souls I, with its worse controls, yet Lorian and Lothric made you put down the game?

Lothric and Lorian have just as much consistency as every other non-gimmick boss in the game. In fact, the Lorian and Lothric battle is widely recieved by a few Dark Souls III communities as one of the best fights in the souls series. The teleports aren't even "RNG" / "random" / "inconsistent". Take a close look at the boss before he teleports.

However, if you're using a mouse and keyboard, I can start to imagine how it could be more of a struggle. Souls games are definitively better with a controller.


TL;DR – I didn't get lucky, I beat him on my first try. I don't remember the terrible camera and inconistency of the boss because none of that exists. Thus, I will come here and tell you xyz and how easy he is if you do abc. The boss is not ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥t, it's like Dancer of the Boreal valley camera angles, as in there's no major issue with the camera angles. This game is alright.

[AlmightyDunkle]

I mean...the game does let you spam roll a good 10 times whenever he teleports.

[Trehek]

Publicado originalmente por Horizons:

The problem is the teleporting and which attack he's going to do during the teleport. You never know which once he will do and the timing is ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up.

This is not true. You do see it. He begins winding up the attack right before he teleports.

I know how you feel. I died to this boss a fair amount while facing him the first time, and I do recognize the camera problems well, but tbh the camera is much more predictable in this fight than on Dancer IMO. Nameless King phase 1 is the worst, but THAT fight is just so bad it's easy to decide to fight completely unlocked and it stops being a problem.

Here's my advice for turning this fight into something manageable and most importantly predictable:

Look at the boss. This is most important since you need to recognize his attacks, especially from the windup frames before he teleports. Also listen. Even if you can't see what he does, you can hear him. When you know which move he's doing and know the delay to his attack rhytm caused by the teleport, you can easily roll to avoid it even if his teleport breaks the camera for some reason and his strike is hidden from you. You can get good practice on this when you enter the fog wall. He will always start with a teleport and will always land behind you next to the wall. See which attack he starts and avoid it with blind roll timing. Then get some space and lock onto him.

Stay in the middle area of the room. Have spatial awareness regarding this. Don't end up too close to walls or pillars. If the camera clips into a wall that's behind you, lock will break. If the boss is close to a pillar, choose rolling directions which don't lead you next to it.

Always stay close to the boss when he's in a favorable position in the middle area. He is much more likely to use a non-teleporting combo, and his melee teleports will (almost) never break camera lock as long as the camera doesn't clip a wall or pillar (which won't happen if you control the fight properly). If the camera does break, he almost certainly backed away to charge his blast attack and camera broke because of distance. This is also evident from no visible strike windup before the teleport. If this happens, stay calm. You know you have time to turn the camera around, find him and dodge his ♥♥♥♥. Afterwards, stay in the middle and instead of going to the unpleasant side area let him teleport back into the fray.

Good luck, and hopefully have more fun!

[Firaeveus Carron]

^

+1