Sudden Strike 4

[maDNauseam]

Hello,

It was surprising to find out someone decided to pick up the series again .After Fireglow stopped supporting the SS3, in the middle of what was then called 'Last Stand', I thought the series would be forgotten forever, as it seemed there was not a big market for it. The game experienced a real painful death, with forums closed, sudden stop in feedback, which was already not much to begin with, site closed, various fansites also vanished...I was really not expecting someone would pick it up from there, so kudos for all those involved in this huge task. It is only fair to recognize that.

That said, the initial excitement of learning that SS4 would be a real thing was soon replaced with some concerns. I don't claim to know what SS series is about or should be about, as it is prone to be something totally different for each player - however, I can share what I think it was that made me play it over other 'competitors' of then and now, like COH, Codename Panzers, Blitzkrieg and more recently MoW.

I got into the series with SS forever, but being a teenager, it was mostly due to being a game where there were lots of units and lots of explosions. With SS2 and Resource War things were different - despite being almost the same graphic wise, I spent countless hours playing each nation, memorizing the voice overs, designing my own maps and battles and playing them in MP over LAN.

SS3 moved it further, as now I also could model my own units with the object editor (it was an hard process in SS2), and design even bigger MP maps. It had an HUGE drawback that was the inability to save over MP, but we had to live with it. I know it is highly controversial, but I think SS3 was the best there was in the series. The only problem was that support vanished early, since the game had huge problems in the beginning and it failed to take off. Perhaps I am just romanticizing, but the potential was there, and very rooted in the original concepts.

Overall, from 1-3 , the idea was always similar: More unit capacity, nations, unit variety, the inclusion of extra tactical layers such as fuel, spare parts and repair, inclusion naval and aerial units, building hedgehogs/dragontooths/laying mines/demo charges etc.. It was, at least to me, an extension of the core concept - a computer version of a large scale battle simulator, where the key was not having the most realistic penetration mechanics or shell drop off, but was to have thousands of units at the same time and micromanage them, with an historical background providing units and roles of the WWII era. This both allowed pure recreation of famous battles of the past, in their 'full' scale', closer to what a grand strategy does but in real time, and also play smaller scale skirmishes, with focus on detail. And since each unit was unique and had different roles, the game was not just an 'Heavy-tank' rush a la CC:Red Alert. You'd break this huge battle in smaller skirmishes with as many units you wanted depending on what you were given and what you needed to achieve. And the whole package was even better in MP, since I prefer to play against an human player and the potential for each player fulfilling different roles in MP was also there.

Now, after seeing the latest footage from gamescom, I can't help but feel something is not right.

There are obvious improvements in graphics/art department which is refreshing, plus pathfinding seems okay (albeit in small maps it was less of a problem) which was a huge drawback before.

However having tanks shooting at tanks 30m away, infantry that barely sees more than that, a camera that while zoomed out covers like 50 meters of terrain seems anything but the Sudden Strike I know. Then the small number of units for something like the battle of Stalingrad, all crammed into a single street with 2 avenues of approach to objectives? This is definitely not the scale of SS series. Katyushas that shoot rockets 10 meters ahead? Stug's projectile slower than a trebuchet, as if the artillery'esque trajectories were forced to fit the small engagment distances?

Then there are obvious flaws, that hopefully can be corrected easily, like those guys manning the AT guns that refuse to even turn to enemies. Germans speaking English? Maybe it is a placeholder, which I guess is common in alphas. However the rest is not, and are definitely the result of an overall idea, different from what I think SS was about.

I mean, as it is already clear from previous topics, this looks more like an MoW/COH title. With one problem - MoW actually has greater depth than what this game currently shows (think for instance about the inventory system in MoW for each unit, or the FPS'esque unit control). Why would this game want to compete in the squad combat territory, I don't know. Maybe the need for cross platform had some weight in this, maybe not..

Now don't get me wrong, I will still be following how it plays out - namely the multiplayer and the modding support. That was a huge part of the game for me. I really want it to be something good!

Good luck.

On a side note, is this board considered to be the 'official' board for the game? I had a look on the kalypso website and there seems to be not much going on there.

[Panzer 1]

I have to agree with your book report.

[Skybreaker]

Hi everybody.
@CagaEstilo
First of all thank you for your dedication and also passion for Sudden Strike in general, as well as giving as some insights on your feelings about this early footage, and some feedback on that.
I try to get most of it at least covered, as overall:
The game was and is still in the middle of development. Be aware that this footage was taken before and at gamescom and things might have changed completely already since then.

Number of units and mapsizes:
This topic has been raised already and we already stated, that the base-game and campaigns of Sudden Strike never had a huge scale, neither in mapsize, nor in sheer unit numbers. Those were provided via the community in mods, but not the game itself.
So for this we got you covered already, as we will give you players the right tools at hand on day one: modding support via Steam Workshop integration for easiest sharing of all the community-made content.

Shooting ranges:
Once again a famous topic, which was also covered.
Shooting ranges and line of sight come hand in hand, therefore I will not make an extra segment for viewing distance/line of sight, but want to cover it here as well.
As we got a top down camera, gameplaywise there needs to be some limitation, to not see the whole map. This is a no-brainer for sure, so we also have the well-known RTS/RTT feature fog of war. So no new invention, but gameplaywise neccessary and also essential if it comes to strategic planning and playing.
Also realism comes into play now, as for sure a tank crew has a really limited line of sight in their tanks.
But here comes the first new feature: Before each game, you have to choose a general, who will all come along with their own and unique abilities, enhancing specific units of yours. So one general comes along with the ability for all tanks to open their hatch. This will increase their line of sight, but will also make the tank commander be vulnerable for infantry, especially snipers.
Another important thing is to make use out of your infantry. As you have said already you do not want a tank rush game and infantry is the best way to scout the area.
As you might have seen in the footage available, infantry can enter forests, making them perfect scouts not to be seen be the enemy, if he/she has not infantry in the forest as well. High-densed forests can not be entered by vehicles, not even tanks, so forests also provide some safety for infantry when fleeing a way too strong force of enemy vehicles.
Also infantry can be used to clear the way of mines and traps for the tanks, or doing exactly this for incoming enemies.

So in general in can be said that the view distance/line of sight determines the shooting ranges of the units. Units cannot shoot what they do not see and will not waste ammunition.
Combines realism, which is the core of Sudden Strike, as well as simply gameplay balancing, especially if it comes to multiplayer.
So all units will have different and varying shooting ranges. So if you have an artillery you just need to make sure to send scouts to provide intel/line of sight/location of enemy units to shoot them from afar.

Number of units:
As the game focuses on strategy and tatical awareness, the number of units is limited to a specific point for sure. The game should be challenging and not be a firework of sending troop after troop as cannon fodder into the battle, because there is an unlimited number of units at hand.
This decision has not only be made gameplaywise, but as well as realism comes into play as well. There were simply not unlimited numbers of troops available and generals/commanders needed to make the best out of the given circumstances and resources availble. Somthing the player also should deal with. Not to frustrate, but simply to keep the game's and serie's core: challenging.
As there will be not reinforcements (not in general, but for sure there are exceptions in the campaigns as well as in specific multiplayer games) which makes the handling of your troops under you command challneging in all kinds of way.
But last but not least: Never forget the modding. As said, staying true to the core elements of Sudden Strike, we also provide modding support right from the start. ;)

Languages:
Germans speaking English; Allied forces speaking German; all countries do speak in their original language - This is all possible!
The player can choose which language will be spoken.
You want realism and authenticism? Let all nations using their original languages, meaning if you are playing Germans, even tjough your game is set to English if it comes to UI, your German troops will speak German. Or if your game is set to German, the Allies will still speak in English. On the other hand, if you want the whole game in your preferred language, you can do this is well, letting all units speak the same language, no matter their nationality.

The Community Hub is official as well as the board you probably might have had a look into already.
The community hub might be more active due to it being international and really easy to access for everybody.
But if you would like to step into the board, feel free to come by and just start a thread/discussion on your own. I will be around as well ;)

Hope I got you covered with most of your feedback.
Keep it up!
-cheers

[Roadmay]

Originally posted by Unerde:

So one general comes along with the ability for all tanks to open their hatch.

I have to say this really look strange and no reason . This feature is come along with the old series , please don't change it to be an ability bouns .

Originally posted by Unerde:

As the game focuses on strategy and tatical awareness, the number of units is limited to a specific point for sure. The game should be challenging and not be a firework of sending troop after troop as cannon fodder into the battle, because there is an unlimited number of units at hand.

Well , I have to say the large number of units is for singleplayer gameplay mostly , but if the number of units of a player in multiplayer had been limit like 100 , so 10 trucks carry 10 soldiers each would reach the top , I think it is awful .
Anyway it will depend on how big the map is .

Is it possible the new Sudden Strike series (like SS5) will have its own engine in the further future ? :/

Thank you for so many detail information .

[maDNauseam]

Hello Unerde,

Thank you for your quick reply!

Well, I'll start with the last point: Languages. After I posted the OP, I noticed that there was already a thread buried in the 4th or 5th page specifically about that issue. So, it is good to hear that something distinct of SS will be kept. (and having options for those that like it differently is good, so nice addition!).

And now onto the mapsize/number of units/shooting ranges.

Perhaps I was not very clear, but I believe this is all part of the same problem - Scale. I understand that there are Engine limitations for unit number and map rendering ( there were in SS2 and SS3), so I am not saying there should be no limit. I also understand the concept of fog of war in RTS, so I am not sure why this is brought to discussion - obviously, it is an important gameplay aspect and I think no one would advocate for its removal. Fog of War defines 'intel' in an RTS. Plus, mechanics like infantry having increased view range, or tank commanders opening their hatch where already present in SS2 (IIRC), and I actually find it strange that it is now a 'General' ability. To be honest, I'd expect that to be possible in any tank so I am a bit concerned about mechanics left out the 'baseline' so they fit as perks in the new General system. In any case, I'll hold my jugdment of the General system until I get to see what it brings to the game.

Now, all these things were part of the SS game, so nothing is new there. Take SS3, forests were good for cover, you could put units inside houses holding their fire, providing intel, etc. This is what I'd classify as depth. Scale is a different thing.

Take the Katyusha as an example. Looking at SS3 .desc file, there is a Ballistic 'Deadzone' of 160 meters and a maximum of ~900m. Obviously, this is not historical 'realism'. This was the result of fitting the unit role in the game scale! The maximum map size was 4096x4096, so this particular unit (which did not have that much range) could cover a substantial part independently of fog of war. Now, when we look at the footage of Stalingrad, with a little bit of hand-waving I'd say a Katyusha of SS3 would cover all of that map and would not be able to fire for at least within a factory distance and definitely not 20m or 30m like the end. This is what I think stands out when we discuss scale. Because this is present in all the engagements.

Other games also feature artillery units that have their ranges 'adjusted' to the game scale. This is not a problem per se. No game works with realistic scales. But compare Theatre of War with Men of War or Sudden Strike and Codename Panzers. It's not that the other games are bad, it is just that what set SS different was its scale.

Now, as for unit number, I don't agree it was never big. A few examples (please note that these values include player and enemy and exclude reinforcements!):

SS3 Allied Campaign -
Omaha Beach Landing - Units: 1948. Map Size: 1024x1024.
Coast Landing (part 2) - Units: 990. Map Size: 1024x1024.
Town assault (part 3) - Units: 1756. Map Size: 1024x1024.

SS3 Iwo Jima defense (IJ)- Units: 1100. Map Size: 2048x2048 (albeit half of it is empty water).
SS3 Iwo Jima attack (USA) - Units: 2223!! (that's without the reinforcements when disembarking). Same Map.
Germans Plant Defense - Units: 1458 . Map Size: 1024x1024.
Soviet Kersch - Units: 1509. Map Size 1024x1024.

As you see, the sheer unit number is indeed huge, and I would say definitely bigger than what we have been shown. You could argue there were no 'base game' maps done in 4096x4096, but certainly there were in mods - and they were epic! (and take quite some time to build).

And the thing about scale is that it defines pretty much how everything else is balanced. A game with few infantry units - as opposed to a lot of cannonfodder; is a game where infantry is harder to kill when facing other infantry/tanks and there is less need of innacurate high splash artillery pieces. In game with smaller maps, you'd expect fewer artillery pieces with increased accuracy, instead of the area denial type in bigger maps. A game with fewer units also puts higher cost in each unit lost. Not to mention that it feels 'strange' to have two infantry squads and 5 tanks in and SS game.

Anyway this is getting long, sorry. For sure I will wait to see what comes out of it. I just wanted to point out that if SS loses its 'scale' advantage over other games, just a general system may not be enough to compete in depth with other titles that already have been established in the market and I think this also worries several other players.

Cheers.

[Panzer 1]

Originally posted by commando:

Originally posted by Unerde:

So one general comes along with the ability for all tanks to open their hatch.

I have to say this really look strange and no reason . This feature is come along with the old series , please don't change it to be an ability bouns .

Originally posted by Unerde:

As the game focuses on strategy and tatical awareness, the number of units is limited to a specific point for sure. The game should be challenging and not be a firework of sending troop after troop as cannon fodder into the battle, because there is an unlimited number of units at hand.

Well , I have to say the large number of units is for singleplayer gameplay mostly , but if the number of units of a player in multiplayer had been limit like 100 , so 10 trucks carry 10 soldiers each would reach the top , I think it is awful .
Anyway it will depend on how big the map is .

Is it possible the new Sudden Strike series (like SS5) will have its own engine in the further future ? :/

Thank you for so many detail information .

I have to agree with @Commando here, i thin kthe idea of having tank crew open the hatch specific to a General is dumb to say the least... and logically doesn't make any sense... the troops wouldn't be like " ahh ♥♥♥♥ GeneralOberst Hein is not in command we can not use the Hatches!!!!!!"

[Skybreaker]

Hi everybody

@commando
Be assured that the number of units will not be counted like this.
So there is no set hardcap that is strictly limiting each and every unit, or breaking them down in numbers, where 1 is one unit and maps are limited to e.g. 100 and every player would get only 10 infantry units or something like this.
So there will be a specific number of tanks, infantry and additional vehicles/units being provided to each and every player, based on a specific gamemode, scenario, mission and so on.
How this will look and work out in detail, I simply cannot say at the moment. But as soon as we have more information and even actual numbers for multiplayer, we will definitely share all details with all of you awesome players.

Questions about a Sudden Strike 5 or an own engine cannot be answered and no promises can be made here at all. Let us just develop and release Sudden Strike 4 first. ;)

@CagaEstilo
We have to thank you, for your detailed feedback. Every bit and piece of information, critics, suggestions, ideas or just appreciation and happiness about a new Sudden Strike, is more than appreciated and welcome on our end. So please keep it up, exactly like this, to help us improve wherever and however we can.

Scale - engine limitation?

Originally posted by CagaEstilo:

understand that there are Engine limitations for unit number and map rendering

Not at all. But first of all, it needs to be pointed out that it is not a limitation of the engine, or the developers and resources in general.
But be aware that Sudden Strike 4 will feature a 3D, instead of a 2D engine.
Paired with all the calculations needing to be done (projectile calculations, multistage-destruction of buildings, weather and soil effecting vehicle behaviour, AI and quite a lot of more things ;)
We simply want to make sure that a lot of Sudden Strike and RTS fans can enjoy the game and not just players with a high-end machine.
As be aware, quite some players started questioning the placeholder system requirements already, which can be found listed on the Sudden Strike 4 Steam Store page.
But having thousands of units on huge scaled maps, with this engine and all the calculations, current high-end machines would even come to their limits.
Despite the fact, that we simply wanted to ensure the game being challenging, as this is and was a core-element of Sudden Strike, we definitely wanted to keep.

I never claimed most of those features being a whole new invention at all. As I have stated and simply replied, that that’s what we wanted to do: Keeping Sudden Strike - Sudden Strike.
So for sure we have features, that were included and already in older entries of the series.
As we do not want to get rid of old features at all.
So we are/were looking to Sudden Strike 1 and 2 for inspiration and we also will and want to evolve the gameplay from that core experience and core-elements of previous Sudden Strike titels.

Correct, the huge scale battles/missions/maps from the first Sudden Strike games were not included in the base-game and were solely made by the Community. And that is why, we are giving you players, modding and sharing those via Steam Workshop right on day one. This will enable the community doing such maps/missions, no matter the system specs.

And you are right scaling and balancing comes together and therefore we kept care of scaling and balancing right from the start. So it will be like Sudden Strike, as this is our main goal:
Creating a game, that deserves the name Sudden Strike.

So stay tuned and keep it up!

@all
Please be aware that the game is still in development and all you have or might have seen in currently available footage, can be/is/might be and/or will be still subject to change.

As I cannot share many details about the generals system, this I can tell already:
In all three campaigns, for every mission, the player can decide and choose one out of three generals whose strategies he wants to follow.
Each general has a specialization. E.g. in the allied campaign, those are Patton (Armor), Montgomery (Infantry) and Bradley (Support). The better the player completes missions, the more points he gets to spend on tactic upgrades for those generals. He may choose to unlock extra APCR ammunitions, speed boost upgrades or foxhole tactics for example. These additional tactical options will incentivise the player to re-play missions and see them in a new light.
Once again, which features that will be in detail, will be as well fleshed out and announced as soon as the development progressed on closer to release.

So please stay tuned.

-Cheers

[luis_alfredd]

Totally agree with your report, the gameplay is what distinguishes a game from another, I remember the wind mill escencel with a sniper course surrounded by fallen soldiers, all from one or two shots at most. Do not want a Company of Heroes or a Red Alert not a Rise of Nations, just want a Hidden Stroke II with Flak 8 or cm in action, the Tiger I received several hits and unable to harm him, at most damage chains or stunning of the crew, that's the essence of the saga, it is understood?
Thank you very much, we are all at the start of the game =)

[McJakub]

Sudden Strike is very "unique" game and I have really big hope that this will be the SS I remember.
I played SS I, Forever, SS II, and a little bit of SS III, so I think I can call my self Sudden Strike fan (also mention that SS was the first game I played).
As stated above, I dont want another CoH or MoW, I want to see Sudden Strike in its whole glory.

I still dont understand what you mean by "big" maps and "a lot of units". For me most of the missions from SSI were big (like D-Day, or Single Mission 'Blizzard'). Almost all of the missions in campaing were really big and any other game couldnt offer that big clashes. I remember that campaign missions in SS II were smaller than in SS I but they still felt Sudden-Strikeish. I see the point for making smaller missions (like the ones shown on gameplays), because bigger confrontations can easily become chaos.

I am mainly waiting for multiplayer, because I miss the old good SS expiriance, with strategic placement of AT guns, mines, supplying your units, using your artillery (will you guys add the characteristic artillery circles on map? I mean the ones that were shown when enemy artillery started to shoot. They were the growning red circles on the map showing the location of enemy artillery, I hope you know what I mean ;)

Also I have one question, will there be an option in multiplayer/coop to play withyou friend controlling the same army? I mean you both can control the same units but focus on different things, one on support another on advancing or left flank right flank, with sending your units under your friends control when he needs help. I think this would be very interesting to see especially in big battles.


I hope you can understand me :)

Cheers

Kuba

[Too Tall]

So Micro transactions? The generals we choose at the start? They will be micro transaction generals?

[Skybreaker]

Hello Too Tall.
No, all three generals (Armor, Infantry, Support) for all three campaigns (Allied, Russian, German) will be available from the start.
-cheers

[luis_alfredd]

Originally posted by Unerde:

Hello Too Tall.
No, all three generals (Armor, Infantry, Support) for all three campaigns (Allied, Russian, German) will be available from the start.
-cheers

I would be very good to launch an beta to check our hopes of returning to classic Sudden Strike or is like the Hidden Stroke, Sudden Strike 3: Arms For Victory was a bad concept.
Thank you very much!

[Skybreaker]

Hello luis_alfredd.
As this has been asked before already, we are currently not planning any kind of testing phases, such as Alpha, Beta, Early Access or such.
-cheers

[Too Tall]

Will we be able to build tank traps, bridges barbed wire, place mines? I think it was a MOD, but trenches? Tank trap trenches?

Specialised variants? Carry-all bren gun, mortar. Sherman mine sweeper, Sherman trench filler, hedgerow dozers? Bulldozers?

Trains will be controllable or just supply reinforcements?

HE, AP munitions? Incendiary bombs?

Any nation specific units? British, Canadian, Italian? Partisans?

[Skybreaker]

Hi Too Tall.
Without promising anyting and the disclaimer that we are still right in the middle of development, I can say following:
Yes, you will be able to make use out of mines. As the weakest armored spot of a tank is from below.
Also there will be different types of ammunition.
All things in details will be announced as soon as we have progressed further in the development and also have something to show.
In the meantime you can have a look into already available footage, to at least get a glimpse what the game will be about and the direction we are heading.
Bets example here, would be a livestream with the devs of the game at gamescom, from August this year:
https://youtu.be/0E4MxSKlhsc

-cheers

[luis_alfredd]

Originally posted by Unerde:

Hi Too Tall.
Without promising anyting and the disclaimer that we are still right in the middle of development, I can say following:
Yes, you will be able to make use out of mines. As the weakest armored spot of a tank is from below.
Also there will be different types of ammunition.
All things in details will be announced as soon as we have progressed further in the development and also have something to show.
In the meantime you can have a look into already available footage, to at least get a glimpse what the game will be about and the direction we are heading.
Bets example here, would be a livestream with the devs of the game at gamescom, from August this year:
https://youtu.be/0E4MxSKlhsc

-cheers

Totally agree with your report, the gameplay is what distinguishes a game from another, I remember the wind mill escencel with a sniper course surrounded by fallen soldiers, all from one or two shots at most. Do not want a Company of Heroes or a Red Alert not a Rise of Nations, just want a Hidden Stroke II with Flak 8 or cm in action, the Tiger I received several hits and unable to harm him, at most damage chains or stunning of the crew, that's the essence of the saga, it is understood?
Thank you very much, we are all at the start of the game =)