Witchcraft is OP - spread the love!

[madocs]

Man witchcraft has the highest damaging spell in the game, and is Overpowered in so many of its spells.

The other areas feel weaker / less love than witchcraft. (I dislike the school from a RP perspective).
Some of the non-EE spells in the other areas have been removed and those areas just don't feel like they have as much punch as they did!

What do people think?

I personally feel we need to nerf witchcraft or buff the others

[Wally]

I basically onyl use withcraft for soulsap + sap will. Not many of its skills really do damage, unless you want to death punch people?

[Winking Wizard]

Nope. Blind was the real deal before, now the skill is completely gone.

Pyro was the filthy casual cheese OPed school, not sure how it is now either. Hasted, burning, damage, you name it.

Ditto for Geo, Geo gets an early summoning, filthy cheese midnight oil, and poison cloud explosion when mixed with pyro.

Aero and Hydro combo is supposed to be as good as Pyro + Geo, but a lot harder to manage. Hydro covers healing, slowed and frozen, pretty good. Aero is the underrated one here, except teleportation and invisibility can be useful from time to time.

Witchcraft gets a lot of good spells but 9 times out of 10 you'll be casting oath of desecration. Horrific scream will have a non-significant accuracy on your enemies by the time you get it. Death punch just doesn't worth the AP. Bloodletting your own leech tank could be viable, absorb the elements only help one of your member.

So, it's a good school, just like every other.

[Baywatch]

Did they change Witchcraft much aside from giving it the marksman charm? I played a witch in the original game and remember enjoying all of the great crowd control, buffs/debuffs, and strong summon I had but, I don't remember any big damage spells and I'm not far enough along to see any real difference aside from the charm. Of course, it's been awhile so there is a good chance that I'm just not remembering it.

I was turned off from playing one in EE because I noticed that geomancer lacks a poison attack until level 6 and I used a zombie two hander in combination. I realize that has nothing to do with witchcraft and is probably a stupid reason in general but, if it does get that good later on I'll have to reconsider it.

[Big Mad Wolf]

Most used first round combo for my mage-witch:
- Oath of Desecreation on my crossbow marksman & rapture on an enemie
- If an enemie gets a healing spell, put decaying touch in him
- If they summoned a pet like a vortex, just unsummon it with destroy summon
- Also good to weaken a though enemie with focused debuffs, sadly they removed mass debuffs ^^
- Hardest choise for master-spells, 5 possible spells but only 2 you can learn.

[Paranoia]

While I don't agree that Witchcraft should be nerfed into oblivion (there's always the original game where you'd only really pick witchcraft if you wanted to use Deathpunch), the rest seems spot on. It's not that Witchcraft is OP in and of itself, but the problem stems form the fact that the other schools of magic just don't shine as they used to and they aren't as useful as Witchcraft, so the branch becomes a 'must have' if your party setup includes a mage.

There's an entire catalogue of useful novice/adept spells: from curse, weaken and lower willpower to destroy summon and a cheap skeleton summon. And now that it's been buffed with the addition of skills like charm or taunt on Decapitator, it's simply too good to skip, especially on Tactician or Honour mode.
Oh, and it is hard to pick 2 master spells since they're all pretty useful...if only that were the case with some other *cough cough* man-at-arms *cough cough* skill trees.

Sure, Death punch isn't as OP as it was before, but it's still really strong, especially considering that now you can get more in-depth intel on your enemy - including dmg mitigation percentage.

As for the other magic abilities, imho (from what I've seen so far) they've been reduced to being either rather useless or a one trick pony.
Water magic is great, providing both support and damage/cc, but as for other schools...they have very limited use.
Geo or Fire? 1-2 points is enough unless you're planning to get something like Meteor Strike. Also I find it hard to believe that Geo Elemental deserves to be a t3 skill.
Air? Good control, but 4 points is more than enough, and if you don't want Netherswap or support skills then it's even less than that.

Now, that doesn't mean that the game should go back to cheese, OP skills and exploits, but it'd be nice for magic skills to be somewhat equally useful, as that would prompt hard choices when making a build. Right now that is not necessarily the case for mages.

[gas gas gas]

Originally posted by Paranoia:

Oh, and it is hard to pick 2 master spells since they're all pretty useful...if only that were the case with some other *cough cough* man-at-arms *cough cough* skill trees.

Have you seen the scoundrel master spells or skills or w/e, though? Those are the real letdown, imo. I mean, the alien egg is quite funny on paper, but it simply doesn't work in game (not for me at least, and I'm trying...). The incumbation timer is way too long (I mean 3 turns, sometimes 4 turns... wow, the fight is over by then). In addition it's a bodybuilding ability, so it gets resisted a lot, and it's hard to do anything about it (if only it was willpower...).

The rogue skills have such a long CD, too... I've been bumping my rogue dexterity up to 20 (some level 16 items are totally crazy for that), but, contrary to the INT schools, the scoundrel cooldowns do not go down that much. They really don't, most of the spells are stuck at 10 turns, even with 20 dext.

But yeah, I'm rambling now. But I really feel like man at arms master "spells" are lightyears ahead scoundrels master spells. Flurry and Shackles of Pain are actually useful.

Originally posted by Paranoia:

Geo or Fire? 1-2 points is enough unless you're planning to get something like Meteor Strike. Also I find it hard to believe that Geo Elemental deserves to be a t3 skill.
Air? Good control, but 4 points is more than enough, and if you don't want Netherswap or support skills then it's even less than that.

I myself find geo worthy of 5 points. Deadly Spores and Poison Slug are great, imo. Poison Dart, Blessed, Blessed Earth... oil, omg oil, they are all amazing!

I am quite disappointed with pyro though. You are probably right that 1 or 2 point could suffice there, maybe even just one... burning touch, wildfire and firefly is what I end up using only, basically.

Air, I'm not convinced. Teleportation saved my ass a few times, it was great, but other than that, I just use the tornado to clear surfaces, and that's it.

Water is indeed great. Rain is invaluable, Heal ofc, freezing touch, ice shard, mass disease... this is a mandatory 4+ school for me !

Witchcraft I don't know. I mean charm can be fight-winning. The Decapitator is an insane pet (the best just ahead of Nick, imo). And Oath of desecration... om nom nom. I didn't feel the need to get it to level 4 though. I don't know, mass fear seems counter-productive, ressurection well who cares, scroll are cheap and anyone can use them, plus you can get ressurection on a Sarong anyway (just got one^^). Death punch... yeah I don't know, not worth the points imo. Invulnerability could be nice, but... if the mage is focused, it's already a bad thing anyway.

So yeah, level 3 WC for me, and I don't feel the urge to get it much higher.

Well sh*, didn't mean to type that much ^^

[Woland]

Witchcraft has great skills, mostly utility though.
But starting a fight with Hail Attack or Meteor Shower with Deadly Spores.... Unless it's something with extreme resistances, the fight is pretty much decided as it starts.

In fact, Witchcraft isn't even that impressive on higher levels in my opinion. You get Decapitator, Rapture and Desecreation early on - all of which are more impressive in my opinion than the Master level skills.

[Paranoia]

Originally posted by larry_poste:

Have you seen the scoundrel master spells or skills or w/e, though? Those are the real letdown, imo. I mean, the alien egg is quite funny on paper, but it simply doesn't work in game (not for me at least, and I'm trying...). The incumbation timer is way too long (I mean 3 turns, sometimes 4 turns... wow, the fight is over by then). In addition it's a bodybuilding ability, so it gets resisted a lot, and it's hard to do anything about it (if only it was willpower...).

Oh, I didn't mean to start comparing all skill trees...initially, at least. It's just bizzare that warriors don't even get to choose anything (much like hydro having only 5 novice spells). It's true that Flurry is useful, but shackles aren't THAT useful, more like situational, especially if you're using a lot of summons (not sure if the skill also decreases the likelihood of being hit, but it sure feels that way). Haven't used it in a long time, and the sad part if that I can't even swap it for something else.
Not to mention, you're practically forced to choose between the most useful skills in novice Man-at-arms...Talk about tough choices.

As for rogue/ranger skills, I don't play rogues and don't have a ranger in my party, but I feel your pain. Wind-up toy being a t3 skill is quite a surprise, the egg is a once per combat type of thing, and so on. That said, Coup de Grace and Shadow step do sound useful, so hard to tell.

The rogue skills have such a long CD, too... I've been bumping my rogue dexterity up to 20 (some level 16 items are totally crazy for that), but, contrary to the INT schools, the scoundrel cooldowns do not go down that much. They really don't, most of the spells are stuck at 10 turns, even with 20 dext.

Indeed, but I guess that isn't much different from the vanilla. Same goes fro str builds: at about 16-18 str, the max cooldown reduction for all tiers is 2.

I myself find geo worthy of 5 points. Deadly Spores and Poison Slug are great, imo. Poison Dart, Blessed, Blessed Earth... oil, omg oil, they are all amazing!

Sure, it depends on one's playstyle, of course. Not convinced the damage + poison is worth it myself, but as for blessed, blessed earth (which by the way is only useful in physical dmg heavy teams) and fortify + oil, they are in novice in novice and dept, so 2 points cover the most useful support/cc skills in that tree.

With that in mind, it feels more beneficial to invest into something like water, as not only are you doing damage and applying frozen (which is also a bodybuilding type of cc like petrification), but you also create enormous ice fields everywhere for that sweet, sweet knockdown. Have you seen Ice Shard? It creates so much ice it's insane. Same for Ice elemental and the cone attack. And don't forget the insanely good ice wall. Keep in mind that you wouldn't have to give up on midnight oil anyway - it's just 1 point in geo. Sure, they've buffed Earthquake, but keep in mind that it can only be used once per combat.

Either way, thanks for your input. Guess it's worth testing some high level earth spells adter all.

I am quite disappointed with pyro though. You are probably right that 1 or 2 point could suffice there, maybe even just one... burning touch, wildfire and firefly is what I end up using only, basically.

Yeah, there's also immunity to burning for early game and somewhat useful smoke field, and of course Purifying fire. The latter removes shields and charm, but then again it's probably not that useful after you've trasitioned past early game.

Air, I'm not convinced. Teleportation saved my ass a few times, it was great, but other than that, I just use the tornado to clear surfaces, and that's it.

Teleportation, nether swap, winds of change, tornado and shocking touch +- avatar and slow are all really nice, but obviously these are all support and cc spells.

Water is indeed great. Rain is invaluable, Heal ofc, freezing touch, ice shard, mass disease... this is a mandatory 4+ school for me !

Do yourself a favor and try Ice Shard, Ice elemental for fields and the t3 cone attack. It's just too good.

ressurection well who cares, scroll are cheap and anyone can use them, plus you can get ressurection on a Sarong anyway (just got one^^). Death punch... yeah I don't know, not worth the points imo. Invulnerability could be nice, but... if the mage is focused, it's already a bad thing anyway.

The main difference between ressurect scroll vs the spell is that the spell ressurects you with 50% hp, which can be absolutely vital in some fights. But then again, by the time you get it you'll probably rarely die anyways, so I see your point.

The fear spell certainly has uses, especially when you're surrounded by very dangerous enemies or simply if some mobs have managed to get to your backline. Think goblin camp, Troll cave or Knight's Tomb fights, for instance.

Death punch is still a pretty good spell, even when mobs absorb a significant chunk of its damage. At level 17 I hit enemies for around 500 dmg with it and still have ap left for decaying touch...which can deal up to 700+ dmg to some enemies if they use heal the next turn. This can be absolutely paramount to your survival in some fights. For instance, you can destroy a tiomb guardian in about 2-3 turns if you use the spell followed by Death punch scroll. That's pretty useful in my book.

Invul is pretty meh I guess, even know it probably gives cc immunity as well. But there's also soulsap, which was changed to 'once per combat' to make it less OP.

[gas gas gas]

You are right in saying that the knockback of ice is glorious. That it indeed is... Now that I think of it, I probably could/should have used water much more offensively to make my rogue work. That juicy +50% dmg on a knocked back target, you know. And all you'd need is some nails in your boots.

Hmm. I take good note of this, for a possible future Honor run. This could be rogue early game saving grace.

The rogue basically watches the other play during the first 10 levels. Yeah, it's an exageration, but not by much.

Your input on death punch, with a decaying touch just after, is also very interesting, thanks for that.

Cheers !

[madocs]

I do agree that scoundrel probably needs a little more love! I would say simply reducing some of their cooldowns would be handy!!

[gas gas gas]

Yeah I would have, as a player, enjoyed a bit more 4-6 turns CD spells to use. Those 12 turns cooldowns are basically the same as "one time per battle only".

But... I could also have been playing the class wrong, maybe on a second run, when you know what you are facing, you can adapt to what you have and find an unseen potential...

It certainly feels a bit disconcerting at first, but it still could be a bit early to make a judgement.

[Winking Wizard]

Originally posted by larry_poste:

Yeah I would have, as a player, enjoyed a bit more 4-6 turns CD spells to use. Those 12 turns cooldowns are basically the same as "one time per battle only".

But... I could also have been playing the class wrong, maybe on a second run, when you know what you are facing, you can adapt to what you have and find an unseen potential...

It certainly feels a bit disconcerting at first, but it still could be a bit early to make a judgement.

I guess people have different definition for rogue's role in a team. For me the damaging skills pretty much all have ~10 turn cooldown, which mean your rogue can't just go rampage for start to end. However, all those status skills have ~4 turn cooldown, making rogue a potential support unit. You know, invisible at battle start, roam around disabling mages and entering sneaking mode, strike when an enemy is disabled, etc.

[Paranoia]

Originally posted by larry_poste:

You are right in saying that the knockback of ice is glorious. That it indeed is... Now that I think of it, I probably could/should have used water much more offensively to make my rogue work. That juicy +50% dmg on a knocked back target, you know. And all you'd need is some nails in your boots.

Hmm. I take good note of this, for a possible future Honor run. This could be rogue early game saving grace.

The rogue basically watches the other play during the first 10 levels. Yeah, it's an exageration, but not by much.

Your input on death punch, with a decaying touch just after, is also very interesting, thanks for that.

Cheers !

Aye, both witchcraft and water magic are very useful in Honour mode (provided it's the same as Tactician). Kd immunity for boots requires 5 crafting ability, though, so make sure to save up some +craft equipment.

Since wiki can't really show everything one needs to know about skills, I've made a little showcase[imgur.com] of some water skills just to demonstrate how much ice they leave behind (INT 20 dmg & cc values shown).

I've tried bringing rogue into my party from level 2 on Tactician just to test if it's viable on Honour mode and my experience was just as you describe...mostly waiting for a right moment and then dying or bringing the whole party down, it was very frustrating and most definitely not fun.

I would guess things improve shortly after one finishes Heiberheim (or maybe in Heiberheim itself, not sure) due to new skills and overall access to more cc. Therefore it probably makes more sense to pick up a bow or a crossbow in Cyseal and make full use of cc arrows and grenades, and then either respec or just pick up daggers and go for intended rogue build. But then again, I don't play rogue so maybe there is a better method to survive as one.

[Zeriel]

Witchcraft has some okay spells, but I don't think it is heads and shoulders above the others. It's mostly utility spells, whereas Pyrokinetic and Hydrosophist can get spells that do 3,000-6000 damage in one cast + status effects, Geomancy gets the ultimate knockdown spell (Earthquake's 300% knocked down chance for piercing resistances, etc).