Guerilla worthless for melee rogues ?

[SenSx]

Hi,

I picked the guerilla perk for my rogue, but it does not seem to stack with back stabber.
So is it worthess for a melee rogue now ?
I don't see any use for it.
i'd rather go in the back of my ennemies for damage.
Even if guerilla allow to not be in the back for +50% damage, maybe there are some conditions where it helps (when you can 't go in the back), but only the first hit will give + 50% with dual wield unlike back stabber where both hits will be critical...
I'm still using sneak to get my rogue safe and reach fragile mage and else...but not for any damage boost.

So did I make a mistake by choosing this ?
It seems to be more suited for sneak rangers...

[SenSx]

Bump !

[Mosey]

They stack, so I am confused by your question. One does autocrit from behind the other add's damage when sneaking. So, sneak then backstab. Simple. I think doing automatic crits that also do 50% more damage is great burst for an opening attack, even though sneak itself is more expensive in AP.

[SenSx]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Tallahassee:

They stack, so I am confused by your question. One does autocrit from behind the other add's damage when sneaking. So, sneak then backstab. Simple. I think doing automatic crits that also do 50% more damage is great burst for an opening attack, even though sneak itself is more expensive in AP.

They stack ?
Are you sure ?
I thought I did not notice any damage improvement...
And I red somewhere else they did not stakc anymore ine EE...

I'm fine with the AP nerf it was OP in vanilla (I did not play).

[Stabbey]

If I recall, in vanilla, Guerrilla did stack with backstab damage, but the thing was that Sneaking in combat had an AP cost of 1-5, and a normal attack cost 2 AP.

If you had Guerrila and Sneak Rank 4, for instance, you could sneak for 2 AP and then attack for 2 more AP, but that would give the same total damage as doing two normal backstab attacks without sneaking. It was only when Sneak was rank 5 costing 1 point where you could use Guerrilla to get the damage equivalanet of two normal attacks (4 AP) for just 3 AP.

In the EE, though, Daggers cost 3 AP to attack with, and Sneak is fixed to cost 5 AP no matter what. So now Guerilla means that you're paying 8 AP to get the damage equivalant of 6 AP of normal attacks. That's a bad deal, so Guerrilla now ONLY is useful for the first attack from out of combat. That's it.

[SenSx]

It is not that bad, because I usually use hast, then sneak, and go in the back of my victim in one turn.
After that i usually wait for one or more turns for the best moment to strike, with full AP thanks to hast.

And yea I think I was stupid, guerilla seems to stack with backstab.
I thought it did not because the 2nd hit with dual wield is sometimes weaker than the first, but both of them have the guerilla bonus, not just the first !

[Hugo]

Me too have noticed, that I tend to invest points in other things than sneaking for a rogue now becouse of too many points needed to enter sneak mode. Hence, guerilla is more worth for a ranger right now.

[Scrubwave]

It is worthless now because for 5ap + attack you get to do 150% damage while you could just be attacking twice or thrice for 200 or 300% damage. Waste of skillpoints in sneaking and a talent for guerilla.
But hey, at least it's "balanced".

[SenSx]

I don't understand why you all say sneak costs 5 AP.
It costs 3 for my rogue.

[Scrubwave]

No, entering sneak mode costs 5ap.

[SenSx]

Ok I just discovered the sneak ability...
I was using walk in shadows, and thought it was the sneak ability you are all talking about.
So that is why I thought guerilla did not stack with backstab, I was not using the right ability.

How as I supposed to guess that ?
My rogue was not even equiped with it from the start...

So what is the point of sneak if you have invisibility for 3 AP, wich only lasts for a couple of turns, but well enough for what you have to do.
The only point is guerilla ?
But now you are right, the high cost seems to make it pointless.

Well to late I alwready used my points in sneak...

[Syrris]

Guerilla is more appropriate for archers, or if you can pull off hit-and-run attacks using the pyramids and/or retreating.

[sanwablo]

I agree Guerrilla is not a great talent in EE.

However, Sneak is a great ability. It costs 5AP in battle but:

1. It does not have cool-down time, which means you can use it whenever you want provided you have enough AP and are not in anyone's line of sight.
2. It does not have a time limit, so you can use it to explore larger areas if you are careful. Alternating between invisibility and sneak is helpful here.
3. You need it to steal from NPCs you don't want to kill, or from enemies before attacking them (e.g. arrows, etc.).

[ColorsFade]

IMO you're way better off not putting points into Sneak and takin the Guerrilla Talent. You're better off investing those Sneak points into Witchcraft and then maxing out Duel Wield (which I'm sure you're doing anyway).

Witchcraft will get you Oath of Desecration, which you can put on yourself or an ally (more flexible that way) for 3AP. It adds 40% damage (so 10% less than Guerrilla) and it lasts 3 turns. It will affect ALL of your attacks for those three turns, not just the opening attack.

With level 5 Dual Wield you're going to attack for 2AP. So my character is going to haste, invis, and then get in position behind a target. On turn 2 I can cast Oath for 3 AP, and then attack 5-6 times in a single turn, with 40% damage on each attack.

In addition, Witchcraft is just freaking powerful. Drain Willpower + Rapture ensures you Charm every time and you'll have more than enough AP to get them both off on the same turn when you're running around with +2 or +3 SPD daggers. Then there's all the awesome utility: Destroy Summons, Summon Undead, Invulnerability...

Forget sneaking.

[SenSx]

I finished the game a long time ago, and tried Sneak in combat during my whole playthrough:
IT SUCKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Waist of points,s ame for Guerilla, waist of talent point.

Rogues are good but don't even try sneak and guerilla.

A fragile early level rogue should be using bombs instead with the aim talent.

[sanwablo]

Yes, I have Dual Wield, Witchcraft and Oath of Desecration already. I use Witchcraft only for positive buffs with my rogue as I prefer to add attribute points to Dexterity and Speed rather than wasting them on Intelligence.

However, my main point about Sneaking is that it is an ability that is not only useful in battle. It has some use there and is not optimal compared to other combat-only skills, but you can also use it for exploring and Stealing, which can turn the table upside down before the fight starts (e.g. stealing Arrows of Enchantment or potions from enemies).