I'm not getting the best out of Madora - RESOLVED

[Bella]

Everyone pulls their weight and earns their keep - except Madora. I have stayed with 2H and only developed Man At Arms with a bit of Armour Specialist thrown in so far.

Okay, she deals a bit of damage, but the others outdo her in that department. As a "tank" (yeah, I know, she's 2H not 1H + Shield but the only one in metal armour, so the role has to go to her) she's a waste of space - mobs tend to ignore her and attack the rest of the party (is there a taunt skill further down the line?).

So I'm finding that I mostly use her to hit a bit and toss some grenades. I don't feel I have got a handle on the best way to use her to make her a more viable member of the party.

I'd appreciate advice.

[Ssenkrad_II]

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=607492091

I am sure Balkoth can give you more pointers on 2-handed Madora as that seems to be his thing. Shoot down to the bottom of my guide to see how I build Madora and how I personally use her. I build/play her as a synergist that helps deal heavy handed blows vs certain bosses. I explain how in the guide.

[JX83]

I got the most value out of Madora when I slapped her with 6 leadership (base + hat). It gave my guys the first strike and everything was usually dead before Madora's turn.

Since you got grenades on her, water balloon + thunder grenade combo makes for nice mass stun.

[Ssenkrad_II]

Originally posted by JX83:

I got the most value out of Madora when I slapped her with 6 leadership (base + hat). It gave my guys the first strike and everything was usually dead before Madora's turn.

Same.

[Borek]

At the end-game my Madora was able to hit for 2k and was super tanky. You get a Taunt skill in MaA skill. She's a great character for Leadership. With a 2H and metal armour she can take a lot of punishment when you taunt enemies.

[Bella]

These replies are very helpful - many thanks :)

I didn't really have any need for Bairdotr (use her for crafting) and Wolgraff, so I wanted to get the best from Madora (despite what sounds, even to my English ears, like the worst Texan accent ever!)

[mr.raider2]

Her biggest weakness is mobility. She needs to get up close to dish out punishment. Battering ram is her only good mobility skill, and it has issues when the battle field is covered in fire or poison. You can try putting winged feet on her, but you'll need to buff dex to make it stick. A better option, IMHO, is to give her 1 point in aero and pick up thunder jump and teleport. This allows her to move around the battlefield unmolested, or cherry pick archers and casters from the back row and pull them forward..

[Ssenkrad_II]

Originally posted by mr.raider2:

Her biggest weakness is mobility. She needs to get up close to dish out punishment. Battering ram is her only good mobility skill, and it has issues when the battle field is covered in fire or poison. You can try putting winged feet on her, but you'll need to buff dex to make it stick. A better option, IMHO, is to give her 1 point in aero and pick up thunder jump and teleport. This allows her to move around the battlefield unmolested, or cherry pick archers and casters from the back row and pull them forward..

Hey, that's in my guide! :)

[Bella]

I was thinking of using the pyramids and Teleportation to move her when Battering ram wasn't suitable. Or buff her so she can move through things like fire and poison etc.

[JX83]

What level are your characters?

[Vardis]

Originally posted by mr.raider2:

Her biggest weakness is mobility. She needs to get up close to dish out punishment. Battering ram is her only good mobility skill, and it has issues when the battle field is covered in fire or poison. You can try putting winged feet on her, but you'll need to buff dex to make it stick. A better option, IMHO, is to give her 1 point in aero and pick up thunder jump and teleport. This allows her to move around the battlefield unmolested, or cherry pick archers and casters from the back row and pull them forward..

Give her lucky rabbit paw super rings and amulets. Mobility problem solved. You can also craft boots with a + to movement. That'll get you a movement speed that lets you move farther per AP than you get using battering ram.

[trevel]

Madora is the best tank in the game if used correctly. Shes in my party all the time since my two main characters are battle mage and enchanter. I'm not sure how she only deals a bit of damage for you? Did you give her a good weapon? Crippling blow can deal massive damage, while whirlwind is always good for mobs..you always need to stick her into the middel of the mob and deal as much dmg as possible. On top of that, battering ram, encourage and crushing fist can change a battle. Put points into strength, constitution, 2H and armor specialist. Body building and willpower are secondary, but you should have at least 2 points in both by level 10.

[Ssenkrad_II]

I believe I play a LOT "safer" than most people do, I would say that for most battles in the game I don't take any damage at all- EDIT: but I play very boring!

1. You will see a lot of people say "bodybuilding/willpower/armor specialist are mandatory, this just isn't true if you play safe. I have never put more than a single point into any of them- with gear (a lot will just come with BB/WP/SP) leadership and traits you will be fine if you don't play aggressive. Giving Madora "five-star-dinner" talent and making cheese bread, boiled potatoes, and dinners will mean that she will never die (current game I just hit lv 10 and have over a hundred dinners, fifty cheese breads and fifty boiled potatoes- she never takes enough damage)...

2. Putting mobility items on Madora keeps you from putting other gear on her (duh). +2 Con and +2 Str from two crafted rings a crafted belt and a crafted amulet (which you can make pre-level 5) and a leadership helm (magical starfish + leather helm) seem like a much better idea than wasting slots on pure movement- and has been stated, thunder jump + battering ram + teleport help out a lot in this regard.

3. Crippling blow never misses, so you will see people rage + melee power stance and spam it as it will eventually cost the same AP (4) as a normal attack and will only have a 1-2 turn cooldown counter

4. Crafting vodoo dolls, putting scrolls on her, giving her the unique summon (which you get around lv 7) as well as spider, midnight oil + boulder bash, are all things that can give her an edge early on and keep you from having to "run through fire".

[Balkoth]

I recorded a video of some 2H Man At Arms stuff, but the process/upload will probably take until tomorrow. The catch is that it's going to be full of some spoilers if you haven't played through the game. However, it does occur in chronological order -- so if it skips to a section of the game that you haven't seen and don't want to spoil you can always stop. It shows various fights ranging from the boss in Hiberheim to the final boss of the game (avoiding spoilers in this sentence).

The video was using saves from my first Tactician run where I played two Lone Wolves (pure mage and pure warrior). So it'd like Madora being half the party if you'd like to think of it that way. And since it was my first playthrough (ever) there's definitely plenty of mistakes in build/gear which get corrected more and more as the video progresses. I also made a few dumb mistakes while recording it as I was trying to rush through nine different fights using characters I was trying to figure out (you might hear "Wait, I seriously don't have spell X at this point?" more than once).

Point is, it's hardly perfect and shouldn't be taken as a "This is the perfect way to play/gear/etc a 2H warrior" and more a "See if you still think 2H MAA characters can't pull their weight after this."

I'm also happy to record other stuff in the game if you'd like, including earlier fights. Just let me know.

Originally posted by Imma-Bella:

I have stayed with 2H and only developed Man At Arms with a bit of Armour Specialist thrown in so far.

Right general idea!

Originally posted by Imma-Bella:

Okay, she deals a bit of damage, but the others outdo her in that department. As a "tank" (yeah, I know, she's 2H not 1H + Shield but the only one in metal armour, so the role has to go to her) she's a waste of space - mobs tend to ignore her and attack the rest of the party (is there a taunt skill further down the line?).

There is a taunt but I've never used it. She's less a tank and more a "murders anything that gets within her reach." Some important questions:

1, what weapon is she using? If the answer isn't "A Blacksmithing 5 weapon of the current level" then that's a significant problem (and one of the problems early on in my video). She is incredibly weapon dependent (as are all melee) and more gear dependent in general (as are all melee).

2, how's her Strength? You want to get that to 15 ASAP for 2 round reduction on MAA abilities (which also makes Crippling Blow a one turn cooldown). Eventually you're aiming for something in the 20-22 range for Strength (more ability damage, higher hit chance, harder for enemies to resist abilities) with the rest in Speed and maybe a point or two in Constitution.

3, how's her Bodybuilding/Willpower? Not sure what level you are and at lower levels you won't be able to invest much but they'll be important. Overall you're aiming for 4 base Bodybuilding (with +1 from Leadership and +1 from gear for 6 total), 4 base Willpower (with +1 from Leadership and +1 from gear for 6 total), 4 base Man At Arms (for Flurry), 4 base 2H (with +1 from gear), and will need at least 2 points in Armor Specialist, possibly 3 end-game.

So that's 10 + 10 + 10 + 10 + 3 (assuming 2 Amor Specialist) = 43 ability points needed. Which you won't get until level 18 if I recall correctly. Depending on the gear you find you might need 5 base 2H, 5 base BB, or 5 base WP (if you find really good items that lack those for the relevant slots) which brings us to 48. You might also want to pick up Iron Hide (+15% to all elemental resists) which requires MAA 5, which would potentially be 53. Point is, she doesn't really have a lot of points to spare.

The catch with Iron Hide is you can already get 100% resistance to all elements without it end-game (5 slots you can add resists to and they'll be 20%+ with high level gear). And being over 100% resist doesn't help -- if you're at 130% Fire the game will display that as 100% and getting the Burning debuff will drop you to 70% (*not* 100%). If for some reason you're having cash problems and can't afford the elemental essences it's something you could consider...but it's a lot less useful than it would be if the essences didn't exist (for armor resists). Early on it'd be nice, but you can't afford to get MAA 5 early on, so...

Originally posted by JX83:

I got the most value out of Madora when I slapped her with 6 leadership (base + hat). It gave my guys the first strike and everything was usually dead before Madora's turn.

You want your leaders to be the Source Hunters since they get 1 Leadership from Righteous (and can get another from Helmet). Which means 4 less ability points needed, or 7 less needed if one is a mage with Leadership on a wand.

Originally posted by trevel:

Madora is the best tank in the game if used correctly. Shes in my party all the time since my two main characters are battle mage and enchanter. I'm not sure how she only deals a bit of damage for you? Did you give her a good weapon? Crippling blow can deal massive damage, while whirlwind is always good for mobs..you always need to stick her into the middel of the mob and deal as much dmg as possible. On top of that, battering ram, encourage and crushing fist can change a battle. Put points into strength, constitution, 2H and armor specialist. Body building and willpower are secondary, but you should have at least 2 points in both by level 10.

Pretty much this, though possibly less Constitution and more Speed. Depends exactly on how much Constitution you're talking about. Speed generally comes in the mid to late game. Similar to Bodybuilding/Willpower really -- as Trevel says, they're secondary early on (having a 30% chance to resist a CC versus a 15% chance doesn't make much difference) but later on you'll be laughing off basically everything.

Originally posted by Imma-Bella:

So I'm finding that I mostly use her to hit a bit and toss some grenades. I don't feel I have got a handle on the best way to use her to make her a more viable member of the party.

There's basically two tactics for Madora, think of them as Smasher and Charger if you'd like.

Smasher:

This is when the enemy is mostly melee and needs to close with your group. You'll probably just wait during your first turn (NOT skip). They have to come to you so your goal is basically to conserve AP and unleash it all on the first poor sap that gets close. Can use Crushing Fist as a ranged Knockdown on a dangerous caster/archer or on anyone stuck in Fire/Poison/etc. The ranged are weakening the enemy group, you're finishing them off or focusing on particularly tough/dangerous targets that are uncomfortably healthy when they reach your group. Your job is to make those targets uncomfortably UNHEALTHY really, really fast. Crippling Blow plus auto attacks for single target (plus Flurry when you get it), Battering Ram + Whirlwind (Bully bonus!) for a clump of enemies (plus probably Crippling Blow/auto attacks). If it makes yourself feel better, imagine yourself as Gandalf yelling "YOU SHALL NOT PASS."

Charger:

In many cases, though, it's not the enemy melee who are the biggest threat. It's the enemy mages/archers. A charge can usually knock down several enemies in a line plus Crushing Fist can CC another target for 2 turns. And once you're (literally) in the enemy camp, you're murderously rearranging the faces of the enemy mages/archers. 2H warriors have immense single target damage -- use it to kill the priority targets. The sooner some enemies die the sooner the fight gets much easier. Is she going to take some hits? Definitely. But she CAN take them, especially with the rest of the group backing her up.

Which leads me to an overall point: Madora is not a one woman army (well, at least not early on). She needs support in the form of buffs like Bless (and ideally Oath in most cases unless the mobs are vulnerable to an elemental type you're dealing a lot of), Wildfire, Fortify, etc. Note that Wildfire isn't even an AP gain overall unless cast before the receiving character's turn -- but it can be used to transfer 4 AP from a mage to Madora in situations where Madora can make better use of the 4 AP (which is probably most of them). She also needs healing, enemies CCed by the rest of the group, etc.

You might be wondering "Hang on, does this mean I'm basically just babysitting Madora then?" No. Think of it this way if you've like (and this is an oversimplified example to demonstrate the point): say a mage can do 300 damage and buff their own output by 100% (so 600 total) while a warrior can do 500 damage. 600 (mage) > 500 (warrior), right? And 600 (mage) + 600 (mage) > 600 (mage) + 500 (warrior) as well (not really a surprise).

But what if that mage buffs the warrior instead? Now we have 300 (mage) + 1000 (warrior) = 1300...which is higher than the 1200 of the two self-buffing mages. Don't read too much into these specific numbers -- the point is that the group is stronger overall when the non-warriors invest some of their AP into helping the warrior. Emphasis on some: a good portion of what you'll be doing is stuff you'd be doing anyway like CCing targets.

Originally posted by Ssenkrad_II:

I believe I play a LOT "safer" than most people do, I would say that for most battles in the game I don't take any damage at all- EDIT: but I play very boring!

Then, frankly, you're not getting much use out of her and you'd probably be better off with another ranged character. There's a reason she has Heavy Armor and abilities like a free Comeback Kid. She's meant to be in the thick of things, even if it's "just" the middle of enemy melee who she lets approach before pouncing.

[JX83]

I still get more value out of having Madora take leadership. The source hunters have to invest less due to traits but they're also the most powerful characters due to being fully customizable. Rather than having my most powerful characters play support (taking leadership), it makes more sense to have lesser characters do it.

[Ssenkrad_II]

Originally posted by JX83:

I still get more value out of having Madora take leadership. The source hunters have to invest less due to traits but they're also the most powerful characters due to being fully customizable. Rather than having my most powerful characters play support (taking leadership), it makes more sense to have lesser characters do it.

My thoughts exactly...