Daggers are better

[Zero7]

Daggers are the best weapon on any mage, you can craft them to get +2 spd pretty early (earlier than you get +2 on wands for sure). Then you can apply tormented soul which you can't do with wands. Dual wielding daggers conveys a +4 speed +4str dex bonus at level 14, what you can do with this is dip into the Man at arms scoundrel and marksman trees without any stat point investment. Scoundrel has very useful utility: adrenaline, fast track, winged feet, marksman some more utility in the form of doctor and first aid. Man at arms is the deal breaker, gives you access to melee power stance, which works on spells, and Rage, which also works on spells without requiring a str investment.

Daggers are also best on dual wielders, wielding a single dagger and an axe is far superior to dual wielding axes. The reason for this is that 1. +2 speed for the majority of the game, 2. Dagger skills scale really well because dagger has low base damage, adding an axe improves precise incision and lacerate damage by 60%. 3. Both Flurry and Daggers drawn will make the axe portion of its damage crit. Keep your I prefer to get my dex to 18 (at 18 precise incision and lacerate stop scaling) and my strength to 15 (at 15 you get the maximum cooldown reduction). Stat points go into str because dex/int gear is common. This allows you to easily dip into magic as well or become a monster of a tank.. My aim was 15 int for maximum cooldown and efficiency, 15 int cc is still potent though not as reliable as pure mage cc but it doesn't differ that much. I went with witchcraft for oath and drain willpower. And ofcourse some one pointers in other magic schools.I reached my stat marks at level 17. The rogue viking has amazing synergy with lone wolf. The rogue viking is jack of all trades but master of all instead of master of none.

Ps title was stupid I meant to do a wink at the other thread not upscale him in any way. Comparing daggers to bows is like apples to oranges.

[Zero7]

Nobody love daggers?

[Ssenkrad_II]

This dagger + sword/axe/mace I have never seen before... Doing a playthrough with it right now and I have to say it is very interesting...

You just have to make sure your dagger is in your main hand^

Thanks for the idea, I'll let you know how it plays out- having to go 1.5 into Dex/Int/Str (6.5/8/10) but getting gear to make up the difference isn't an issue (+2 Dex from Belt/Necklace and +2 Con from two rings as soon as I get into Cyseal)...

[bingammj]

I've been interested in this build since Zero7 started bringing it up a few weeks ago. Finishing finals this weekend and planning to start a honour mode run afterwards - curious to hear any more thoughts on the dagger + axe DW hybrid.

Current thoughts on 4-man party (mod to create all 4):
1) 1-Hand / Shield Leader with Pyro 4. I know it's not "optimal" but for an honour run having a true tank may be worth it. Would be my grenadier as well.
2) Bow Ranger
3) Dagger/Axe Shadowblade
4) ?

[Owl]

although i see your point, i still like to use up any special abilities from staves before i trash them.

[Balkoth]

Originally posted by bingammj:

curious to hear any more thoughts on the dagger + axe DW hybrid.

I'm curious about the idea but the lack of actual numbers and lack of practical demonstrations (ideally video but even screenshots would be nice) worries me. I don't expect everyone to be as thorough as I was in the 2H vs DW Strength thread but this reads more as "This seems like a cool thing that works well for me."

Maybe this is equal to Strength users going 2H or DW. Maybe this is 10% better. Maybe this is 10% worse. Maybe this is 30% worse. We really have no idea : /

I might try it next time I start a game but have several going at the moment...

[bingammj]

Just above my comment Ssenkrad_II sounded like he was trying a run with it. Was only 3 days ago, but was wondering if he had any updates or anyone else had tried it out. I'm not a min-max person so 3.7825% difference in potential Damage Per Action Point doesn't really matter to me so much as the "feel" of the play style. If anything, the ongoing informative discussion involving a couple of you has shown how much it really doesn't matter too much even on tactician mode as long as you understand your build and equip it correctly.

I feel 4x rangers would work just as well as 4x hybrid melee battlemages or 4x mages or a balanced composition IN-SO-FAR AS being able to successfully complete the game. Some builds / party compositions may be easier or harder, or more capable of handling a particular battle.

That said, and with less worry about X% DP/Action Point potential, I am curious about how this build plays and what would help get it moving in the more challenging early game, if anyone has experience and would like to share.

[Ssenkrad_II]

Currently doing a run through playing as a dual dagger + axe/sword/mace hybrid, yes, also was messing around with another feature the game has at the same time, a couple things I will say

PARTY COMP

1. Party comp is entirely based around who is avialable in game to fill out your team of four. If you go two lone wolfs it might seem more open and/or forgiving as you are 100% in charge of customizing your two people, they have 70% more hp (harder to kill) and have more points to spend. Having to pick people already pre-made changes the dynamics as you have to evaluate who is pre-built the best (and if you are willing to use a glitched out hireling) and then what do they build into the best- 90%+ of the time people end up floating back to Madora and Jahan and then the question becomes "what can they build into the best"- so you really do get pushed down a "this party is better" path, but the game is frankly easy enough that it doesn't really matter.

2. Pure melee is without a doubt is the hardest party comp to pull off in the game- but as you stated, I believe it is still 100% possible to do even on tactician. However, people who make love with 2-handed knight builds also use oath, slow current, bless, drain willpower, restoration, and frankly a million other spells to make that build happen, so a pure 4x melee focused non-magic group would be hell. I would love to see someone play as a party of four that has ZERO magic and ALL melee and claim that fights were even remotely "easier"- they would be hell! People can argue the 5% extra damage all they want, the fact remains that nothing in the game makes levels 1-12 easier than grenades + special arrows + walk-in-shadows, nothing! With pinpoint + slingshot grenades never miss, special arrows never miss to begin with, and between the two you will destroy everything without taking any damage. Walk-in-shadows makes stealing, setting up boss fights, and avoiding fights risk free. Levels 15-Fin nothing comes close to the master level spells/abilities of Rain of Arrows> Hail Storm > Storm > Meteor Shower. All of that would not be possible with a pure melee focused group!

3. A party of 4x rangers might be awesome. The problem is that you can only build two and you would have to recruit the other two, and frankly no one builds into it well. Thus the problem stated in point 1.


HYBRID HYBRID

1. Going hybrid hybrid you will find Str + Dex + Int req's on weapons to be an issue (if you are crafting every level). However, if you craft at around lv 7 (that is when +1 gear appears) and then again around 11 (that is when +2 gear becomes avialable) vs crafting every single level you can still keep up and the added damage per level of crafting IMO is negated by the hours you chew up crafting new gear every level- the added frustration of crafting every level is high for me so this didn't bother me. Also crafting +1 dex or str belts and amulets early will help.

2. If you were going with a dual dagger + axe/mace/sword but were not planning on Int and spells you would run into other issues. If you didn't go grenades you will find the first ten levels much more difficult and if you didn't go Int and spells you will find post level 15 harder.

3. Scoundrel skills were terrible (IMO) frankly because with dual daggers they never dealt enough damage and their CC wasn't strong enough to negate the lack of damage output- however with a tenebrium axe in your off hand changes that (picked up tenebrium lv 7, funny story).

4. As I have said above and in my guide, nothing makes levels 1-12ish easier than CC from touching spells, midnight oil + boulder bash, grenades, special arrows, and walk-in-shadows to name the few off from memory (I have a list above my skills section in guide, I believe there is 11). Also, nothing makes levels 15+ easier than Rain of Arrows>Hail Storm>Storm>Meteor Shower. There is a soft spot between around 10-15 (B. Rex to K. Bore specifically) that frankly I have counted on my 2-handed Madora to deal more damage than normal- due to bosses high elemental res as well as being immune to most CC. What the scoundrel skills did was add a lot more 3-4AP skills that do 150% weapon damage, which has made levels 10-15 much easier and taken a huge load off of Madora. From what I have played so far I would recommend a dual dagger + axe/sword/mace over a pure dual either direction.

5. That said Jahan builds into it very poorly, I would never build him into it again- his stats just don't work! I would keep Jahan as a dual dagger in the future.

[JX83]

Why do you value touch spells so highly? They cost 3 AP for a single chance to stun.

About the soft spot, what bosses can't be stunned after Drain Willpower?

[Ssenkrad_II]

1. 2-3AP is a sweet zone for me, easy to use a couple in one turn even early on in the game. Most fights I will not take much if any damage, I don't joke about that, but it is because I CC all, day, long...Also with melee power stance and dual your touch spells will be doing more damage than special arrows, still have a chance to freeze/stun and cost 1AP less. I always find them to be useful cheap little lifesavers.

2. Burning Touch is the single best "locked door" fixer in the game

3. Decaying touch is brutal.

4. B. Rex and K. Bore mostly- they can still be stunned, even without drain willpower, but the combination of immunities + invunerabilities + pre-level 15 makes them different to deal with personally.

[JX83]

1. How is that possible? My touch spells do ♥♥♥♥ for damage under the same circumstances. That's the sole reason I never use them early on.

4. Isn't it just Drain, Stun and beat down? I've yet to see them survive the stunlock.

[Ssenkrad_II]

1. They don't deal great damage, but neither do special arrows (albeit save for poison arrow on fire) for the most part. My touch spells will be right on par or above special arrows for damage (sub-par) but only cost 2-3 AP. The only downside is the range.

4. It isn't just dealing the damage, it is also the combination of also taking damage, which Madora takes better. With invunerablity and abilties I find that "soft area" to be difficult to avoid taking damage (I don't like taking ANY in fights) and thus I have Madora more in the mix. I don't die in fights, I just end up using Madora more during that time and then she fades out again after 15. Drain willpower + stuns are still obviously the way to go once invunerablities are gone.

[JX83]

Are we playing different games? My shocking touch isn't scaling with weapon damage. It does 101-111 with 17 int. My stun arrows are doing 309-548 with a level 16 bow.

[Balkoth]

Originally posted by bingammj:

I feel 4x rangers would work just as well as 4x hybrid melee battlemages or 4x mages or a balanced composition IN-SO-FAR AS being able to successfully complete the game. Some builds / party compositions may be easier or harder

I'm a bit confused -- if some compositions are easier than others then how do they work just as well in terms of being able to complete the game? Seems there's a difference between "All party compositions CAN complete the game" and "All party compositions work just as well in terms of completing the game."

Originally posted by Ssenkrad_II:

they have 70% more hp (harder to kill) and have more points to spend.

340% HP vs 400% HP in terms of overall HP on Tactician. Plus half the start AP and a bit over half the turn AP. Not to mention stuff like one person getting CCed is half the group getting CCed versus 1/4.

Less points to spend as well. At level three Lone Wolves will have 5 + 2 + 2 each for 18 total. Group of four has 5 + 1 + 1 = 28 total.

Not saying being individually tougher isn't an advantage, but there's a massive, massive price for that.

Originally posted by Ssenkrad_II:

People can argue the 5% extra damage all they want, the fact remains that nothing in the game makes levels 1-12 easier than grenades + special arrows + walk-in-shadows, nothing!

How long does it take you to kill King Boreas, out of curiosity? Seems to be the "last" boss in that level range if I recall correctly. Can include real time if you want but I was referring to number of rounds.

I'm also not sure why you seem to equate "taking less damage" with "easier," unless I'm misunderstanding you. If anything what you seem to be talking about sounds "harder" compared to more straightforward tactics along the lines of "Walk in, smash everything, heal damage as needed" meaning more effort is required for the same end result.

Originally posted by JX83:

Why do you value touch spells so highly? They cost 3 AP for a single chance to stun.

I don't disagree with your point here, but in the same vein why do you value special arrows so highly? 4 AP for a single chance to stun/knockdown/etc.

Or are you only using special arrows like Static Cloud with an AoE?

Originally posted by JX83:

1. How is that possible? My touch spells do ♥♥♥♥ for damage under the same circumstances. That's the sole reason I never use them early on.

This is how I feel about a lot of stuff people talk about. A lot of people (definitely not just SSenkrad) seem overly obsessed with CC and incredibly undervalue raw damage (and I'm not just talking about physical damage here). This is why a run in Classic with a friend was harder than Tactician -- the friend obsessed about CC and special arrows and nothing actually *died.*

[JX83]

Static cloud offers multiple chances to stun. Stun, Charm and Knockdown arrows offer a chance of CC and 100% weapon damage for the sweet price of 4 AP. Elemental weakness exploitation and free 100% hit rate is great too.

[Balkoth]

Originally posted by JX83:

Stun, Charm and Knockdown arrows offer a chance of CC and 100% weapon damage for the sweet price of 4 AP

Are you saying those three and only those three do 100% weapon damage?

Originally posted by JX83:

free 100% hit rate is great too.

From my perspective this seems like a weird statement as I'm used to always having a 100% hit rate on melee (hell, even without a pre-pull Bless (0 AP) or in-combat Bless (3 AP) it's usually at 90-95% even with Rage).

But I also remember the Classic run where the friend missed constantly...I figured that was just due to having like 12 Dex at level 11.