Bows are better

[JX83]

Having finished my first playthrough, I've decided to write a series of posts to share my knowledge on optimizing combat efficiency. These posts will range from analysis on why x is better than y to straight up abusively OP ♥♥♥♥.

Bows are better than crossbows

First, let's look at the differences between a level 20 crafted bow and xbow (I omitted tormented soul and scope which will be on both weapons)

Bow
163-289 piercing
48-86 tenebrium
6% crit rate
200% crit damage
+3 speed

Crossbow
180-318 piercing
53-95 tenebrium
8% crit rate
200% crit damage
-0.9 movement

What you can do with a bow/xbow can essentially be broken down into 3 things:
1. basic attack
2. special arrows
3. expert marksman skills

1 can miss and can crit
2 and 3 cannot miss and cannot crit

Bows will always be superior to xbows when using 2 and 3 because bows have higher non-crit damage with 6 bow spec. Crossbow spec increases crit rate and crit damage: 2 and 3 can't crit so it has zero effect on 2 and 3. There's no need to compare their respective efficiency in 2 and 3. So the question is, do xbow basic attacks ever become more efficient than bow special arrows or EM skills? I'll be comparing xbow 1 to bow 1, 2, 3.


Case 1:
For this case, I'll assume 100% accuracy which can be achieved by hard CCing the enemy or if you're really really really desperate, Farseer.
Below is what a basic attack looks like for a bow and xbow at level 20 (taken from the stat screen)

Bow basic attack (7 perception = 5 base +2 from scope)
392-695
*543.5 average non-crit damage
16% crit rate (+2 perception +5 leadership +6 gear +3 compassionate)
200% crit multiplier
*630.46 average damage per shot in the long term
*157.62 dmg/AP

Crossbow basic attack (7 perception = 5 base +2 from scope)
303 - 538 (+10% leadership, +20% power stance)
*420.5 average non-crit damage
45% (+2(perception) +5(leadership) +8(gear) +3(compassionate) +27(6 xbow spec))
300% crit damage (6 xbow spec)
*798.95 average damage per shot in the long term
*159.79 dmg/AP

For calculating average damage per shot in the long term:
(avg non-crit dmg)*[(1-crit rate)+(crit mult)*(crit rate)]
NOTE: this is effectively +1% dmg per 1% crit for bows and +2% dmg per 1% crit for xbows

Already you can see the xbow is only slightly better than the bow with no points invested in perception. For a weapon that's supposedly better at basic attacks, it's not much better.


Case 2: I lied, I'm not going to analyze case 2. Instead, I'll just write some comments on it. It depends on the enemy. If an enemy is really weak to crushing/elemental damage, special arrows can really ♥♥♥♥ them up. Some of the extreme cases are double damage against elementals. In those cases, xbow basic attacks will never "catch up." But case 2 is really just "it depends."


Case 3:
Crossbow basic attacks can increase in average damage per shot by increasing perception. So for the comparison of xbow basic attack and bow EM skills, I'll be looking at how much perception is required for a xbow to "catch up."

First, let's start off with the efficiency of EM skills used with a bow:

Richochet
529-938
*183.38 dmg/AP (per target hit)

Barrage
(353-626) * 3
*244.75 dmg/AP

Splintered Arrow
1274-2259
*252.36 dmg/AP

Arrow Spray
(235-417) * 16
*745.14

Earlier I showed that 1% crit increases average xbow damage per shot by 2%. You can get 45% crit rate for free. After that, you must invest attribute points or get +perception gear. So for this I'll use the formula:
420.5*(100%+90%+perception*2%)/5 = avg dmg per shot / AP
100% is the base damage,
90% is the avg dmg increase from free crit
1 perception over 5 = 1% crit (note: for this formula, it does NOT include the scope bonus which is already included in the free crit)
5 is the AP cost of a xbow basic attack

With 21 total perception (14 points invested) xbow is at 183.34 dmg/AP, just under Richochet. At 22 total perception (15 point investment) xbow basic attack beats bow richochet at 185.02 dmg/AP.
At 100% crit rate, Xbow basic attack reaches 252.3 dmg/AP. That's better than barrage but worse than splintered arrow.


Other things to consider:

Every point you put into perception is a point you're not putting in speed. You get less AP per turn and therefore less shots per turn. With this in mind, I'm not sure if xbow is truely stronger than bow in basic attacks once the whole picture is taken into account.

Free +3 speed: bows get it, xbows don't (unless you want to sacrifice 8% crit which would hurt xbows even more)

Mobility: -0.9 movement on xbows, zero penalty on bows

Just to recap:
xbow basic attack is only slightly better than bow basic attack with no investment in perception
bow special arrows and EM skills are always superior to xbow equivalents
xbow basic attack exceeds bow EM skills only after massive investment in perception (except for splintered arrow and arrow spray)

Bows are better.

[Ssenkrad_II]

I have found a bow (yellow) with +3 Spd and Con and high water damage on it... After a scope, tormented soul and a water essence the bow had a +3 Spd/Con/Per/Str/Dex with MASSIVE damage...

However that is NOT the norm... not even close... I have played the game a few times and have NEVER found a crossbow that "eclipsed bows"...

What you are describing is a fluke, not the "norm"...

[JX83]

Originally posted by Red Alert:

a couple things to note:

• bow skill/special arrow tooltips are bugged. They list damage based on the +50% from your arrow weapon skill, but they do NOT actually deal this damage.
  
• crafted bows are definitely better than crafted xbows, but loot xbows can eclipse both. With a potential +damage buff, +elemental damage buff, +crit buff, and the -1 AP cost buff, you can find extremely powerful crossbows.

given these, your arguments for case 1,2,&3 don't hold much water.

How do you know they're bugged?

Do you have any examples of crossbows that are better than equivalent level bows?

[Ssenkrad_II]

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=706286895

Only non-crafted bow I have ever used...

[Red Alert]

Originally posted by JX83:

Originally posted by Red Alert:

a couple things to note:

• bow skill/special arrow tooltips are bugged. They list damage based on the +50% from your arrow weapon skill, but they do NOT actually deal this damage.
  
• crafted bows are definitely better than crafted xbows, but loot xbows can eclipse both. With a potential +damage buff, +elemental damage buff, +crit buff, and the -1 AP cost buff, you can find extremely powerful crossbows.

given these, your arguments for case 1,2,&3 don't hold much water.

How do you know they're bugged?

Do you have any examples of crossbows that are better than equivalent level bows?

http://larian.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=579701#Post579701

In my playthrough, here's a crossbow I found at level 15: http://i.imgur.com/Zy25Tav.png. This one is extremely strong - I got pretty lucky here - highest possible +dmg, highest possible +elemental damage, and a decent +crit. Note that legendary weapons get 3 buffs.

Here's a level 20 I found with less luck on the buffs: http://i.imgur.com/0UcubGy.png. No elemental damage buff unfortunately, but note the attack AP cost. The -1 attack AP cost buff is exclusive to crossbows and is easy to miss.

The best possible crossbow would be divine (4 buffs), with the +30% damage buff, +30% elemental damage buff, +11% crit buff, and -1 AP attack buff. But you'd have to be really lucky to find one of those.

"loot" in this game mostly comes from shops, btw. You are exposed to far more legendary/divine loot in this game if you check shops every so often rather than just finding stuff in dungeons. That is one of my biggest qualms with this game, how 99% of dungeon loot is worthless.

[Ssenkrad_II]

Your damage on that xbow was ~250-400 where my bow was ~200-350 (as well as the crafted bows- save for the fact that my bow did water damage vs tenebrium which means I could take mine into the final battles) then you add the 55% extra damage from bow skill that number becomes ~300-550

Crit chance does not factor into Rain of Arrows or special arrows which are the number 1 and 2 reasons to use a bow, so raw damage trumps everything else and that would still fall to bows...

Even with all those buffs on the xbow you will still deal less damage vs the bow with Rain of Arrows + special arrows, you would only come close with "auto attacks" and why the hell would you even be doing that by the time you found that xbow?

[JX83]

A few posts down, Raze said:

In general, special arrow damage should be based on the buffed weapon damage (so the tooltips are correct in that case), and will be fixed in the next update.

He didn't mention EM skills so the only thing left to do is to test if Bow skill is actually improving EM skill damage. If Bow skill is improving EM skill damage, then that crossbow needs to have higher damage than bows with +50-55% damage to be comparable.

[Red Alert]

Originally posted by Ssenkrad_II:

Your damage on that xbow was ~250-400 where my bow was ~200-350 (as well as the crafted bows- save for the fact that my bow did water damage vs tenebrium which means I could take mine into the final battles) then you add the 55% extra damage from bow skill that number becomes ~300-550?

And then subtract that 55% because the bow ability only affects attack damage, not skill damage. My xbow then deals more damage with skills AND auto-attacks.

Originally posted by JX83:

A few posts down, Raze said:

In general, special arrow damage should be based on the buffed weapon damage (so the tooltips are correct in that case), and will be fixed in the next update.

He didn't mention EM skills so the only thing left to do is to test if Bow skill is actually improving EM skill damage. If Bow skill is improving EM skill damage, then that crossbow needs to have higher damage than bows with +50-55% damage to be comparable.

Yeah, he did say the skill is bugged and the tooltip is correct for special arrows. However, the fact that it's a bug doesn't change the fact that it's there. There are a lot of bugs in this game that larian is not too keen on fixing. This is the latest patch for EE, no fix yet: http://steamcommunity.com/games/373420/announcements/detail/666902804927919876

Also, elemental ranger is a weird talent in my experience, but I do know it receives the xbow skill crit bonuses. Which means you can use it to deal a lot of extra elemental damage.

[JX83]

Just because it wasn't documented doesn't mean the bug wasn't fixed. Your assertion is dependent on testing.

[Red Alert]

Originally posted by JX83:

Just because it wasn't documented doesn't mean the bug wasn't fixed. Your assertion is dependent on testing.

The patch says "You can find the full list of changes below." If you are suggesting that might be false, that is your assertion, not mine.

[JX83]

Undocumented changes can and do go through. I know for a fact that Oath increases EM skill damage which is contrary to your linked bug report. The "full list of changes" does not mention fixing Oath so I have very little reason to believe that is indeed the full list of changes.

[Ssenkrad_II]

I would also add that your bow damage (ie. 55% bow skill extra damage) SHOULD increase EM skills, and if the tooltips is displaying this but the in game damage is different the bug lies in the damage application and not in the tooltip...

[Lautrec]

Did some testing about bow skill not effecting special arrows. 1lv characters with starter bow with no defensive stats or useful talents was used. Both only had int as stats. One had bow lvl 2 while other had 0. They fired fire arrows at eachother (20+ times). Chilled the targets to eliminate burn damage. The one with the bow skill dealt approximately 2 more damage. Both damage ranges were identical to the tooltip other than maximum being one lower which is most likely caused by the added fire resistance by the chill effect. Conclusion: Bow skill does effect elemental arrow damages, tooltip appears to be correct.