Bows are better

[JX83]

Having finished my first playthrough, I've decided to write a series of posts to share my knowledge on optimizing combat efficiency. These posts will range from analysis on why x is better than y to straight up abusively OP ♥♥♥♥.

Bows are better than crossbows

First, let's look at the differences between a level 20 crafted bow and xbow (I omitted tormented soul and scope which will be on both weapons)

Bow
163-289 piercing
48-86 tenebrium
6% crit rate
200% crit damage
+3 speed

Crossbow
180-318 piercing
53-95 tenebrium
8% crit rate
200% crit damage
-0.9 movement

What you can do with a bow/xbow can essentially be broken down into 3 things:
1. basic attack
2. special arrows
3. expert marksman skills

1 can miss and can crit
2 and 3 cannot miss and cannot crit

Bows will always be superior to xbows when using 2 and 3 because bows have higher non-crit damage with 6 bow spec. Crossbow spec increases crit rate and crit damage: 2 and 3 can't crit so it has zero effect on 2 and 3. There's no need to compare their respective efficiency in 2 and 3. So the question is, do xbow basic attacks ever become more efficient than bow special arrows or EM skills? I'll be comparing xbow 1 to bow 1, 2, 3.


Case 1:
For this case, I'll assume 100% accuracy which can be achieved by hard CCing the enemy or if you're really really really desperate, Farseer.
Below is what a basic attack looks like for a bow and xbow at level 20 (taken from the stat screen)

Bow basic attack (7 perception = 5 base +2 from scope)
392-695
*543.5 average non-crit damage
16% crit rate (+2 perception +5 leadership +6 gear +3 compassionate)
200% crit multiplier
*630.46 average damage per shot in the long term
*157.62 dmg/AP

Crossbow basic attack (7 perception = 5 base +2 from scope)
303 - 538 (+10% leadership, +20% power stance)
*420.5 average non-crit damage
45% (+2(perception) +5(leadership) +8(gear) +3(compassionate) +27(6 xbow spec))
300% crit damage (6 xbow spec)
*798.95 average damage per shot in the long term
*159.79 dmg/AP

For calculating average damage per shot in the long term:
(avg non-crit dmg)*[(1-crit rate)+(crit mult)*(crit rate)]
NOTE: this is effectively +1% dmg per 1% crit for bows and +2% dmg per 1% crit for xbows

Already you can see the xbow is only slightly better than the bow with no points invested in perception. For a weapon that's supposedly better at basic attacks, it's not much better.


Case 2: I lied, I'm not going to analyze case 2. Instead, I'll just write some comments on it. It depends on the enemy. If an enemy is really weak to crushing/elemental damage, special arrows can really ♥♥♥♥ them up. Some of the extreme cases are double damage against elementals. In those cases, xbow basic attacks will never "catch up." But case 2 is really just "it depends."


Case 3:
Crossbow basic attacks can increase in average damage per shot by increasing perception. So for the comparison of xbow basic attack and bow EM skills, I'll be looking at how much perception is required for a xbow to "catch up."

First, let's start off with the efficiency of EM skills used with a bow:

Richochet
529-938
*183.38 dmg/AP (per target hit)

Barrage
(353-626) * 3
*244.75 dmg/AP

Splintered Arrow
1274-2259
*252.36 dmg/AP

Arrow Spray
(235-417) * 16
*745.14

Earlier I showed that 1% crit increases average xbow damage per shot by 2%. You can get 45% crit rate for free. After that, you must invest attribute points or get +perception gear. So for this I'll use the formula:
420.5*(100%+90%+perception*2%)/5 = avg dmg per shot / AP
100% is the base damage,
90% is the avg dmg increase from free crit
1 perception over 5 = 1% crit (note: for this formula, it does NOT include the scope bonus which is already included in the free crit)
5 is the AP cost of a xbow basic attack

With 21 total perception (14 points invested) xbow is at 183.34 dmg/AP, just under Richochet. At 22 total perception (15 point investment) xbow basic attack beats bow richochet at 185.02 dmg/AP.
At 100% crit rate, Xbow basic attack reaches 252.3 dmg/AP. That's better than barrage but worse than splintered arrow.


Other things to consider:

Every point you put into perception is a point you're not putting in speed. You get less AP per turn and therefore less shots per turn. With this in mind, I'm not sure if xbow is truely stronger than bow in basic attacks once the whole picture is taken into account.

Free +3 speed: bows get it, xbows don't (unless you want to sacrifice 8% crit which would hurt xbows even more)

Mobility: -0.9 movement on xbows, zero penalty on bows

Just to recap:
xbow basic attack is only slightly better than bow basic attack with no investment in perception
bow special arrows and EM skills are always superior to xbow equivalents
xbow basic attack exceeds bow EM skills only after massive investment in perception (except for splintered arrow and arrow spray)

Bows are better.

[Zero7]

Oi try dagger+axe versus 2h, if you're up for it.
Being hybrid is fine due to certain hybrid +4 stat items dropping before pure +2 strength gear even drops. The offhand axe adds 60% damage on lacerate and precise incision compared to dagger. Don't use the crit chance axe, use the damage enhanced. Besides that the axe will crit in a flurry or daggers drawn backstab. As a dagger/axe dual wielder a lot of my damage comes from the upscaled lacerate and precise incision + crippling blow, then if I can position for backstabs I can do both a daggers drawn and a flurry to destroy the enemy. Crippling strike is used sometimes to fill the gap. Normal attacks aren't used much.

For my build 15 str 18 dex is the sweetspot the rest should go into con and spd. If you're not using normal attacks who cares about offense rating? Besides, you can always CC a target or spend 3 ap on bless.

I've gone through the game up to level 17 as a dagger/axe wielding char starting at level 8 when I changed over from double axe. At that level I was clearly doing more damage with lacerate, precise incision and daggers drawn.

[JX83]

I need to clarify that I'm an advocate of respeccing to whatever is most powerful at that point in the game. Dual doesn't overtake 2H until mid-late game so I start with 2H and switch to DW. This means my analysis is purely for late game.

1. With high speed, the extra AP required to circle around an enemy is only 1-2. The caveat I made was for specific situations the daggers will be allowed an extra attack. To clarify, I'm not putting dual daggers above dual axes because overall dual axes are more reliable since they don't have positional requirements.

2. True. Factoring in damage type will change the answer to "it depends on the enemy."

3. Yeah. 5 Dual and +8% crit outperforms 6 dual.

4. Only slightly but not enough to outperform 8% crit.

5. Again, I just use 2H for those parts of the game.

6. I put very little weight in the void dragon. The final boss is one fight in the entire game and is one of the easiest fights. Yes non-tenebrium damage superior in this fight. However I don't even bother switching weapons and can still OTK him.

[JX83]

Цитата допису Zero7:

Oi try dagger+axe versus 2h, if you're up for it.
Being hybrid is fine due to certain hybrid +4 stat items dropping before pure +2 strength gear even drops. The offhand axe adds 60% damage on lacerate and precise incision compared to dagger. Don't use the crit chance axe, use the damage enhanced. Besides that the axe will crit in a flurry or daggers drawn backstab. As a dagger/axe dual wielder a lot of my damage comes from the upscaled lacerate and precise incision + crippling blow, then if I can position for backstabs I can do both a daggers drawn and a flurry to destroy the enemy. Crippling strike is used sometimes to fill the gap. Normal attacks aren't used much.

For my build 15 str 18 dex is the sweetspot the rest should go into con and spd. If you're not using normal attacks who cares about offense rating? Besides, you can always CC a target or spend 3 ap on bless.

I've gone through the game up to level 17 as a dagger/axe wielding char starting at level 8 when I changed over from double axe. At that level I was clearly doing more damage with lacerate, precise incision and daggers drawn.

I'd like to see the damage/AP numbers.

[Ssenkrad_II]

15 Str and 18 Dex means very little chance that you will be able to cast spells at all; this alone would keep me from ever attempting this.

[Zero7]

Цитата допису Ssenkrad_II:

15 Str and 18 Dex means very little chance that you will be able to cast spells at all; this alone would keep me from ever attempting this.

Nah, +2 dex/int rings show up before you even see +2 strength rings (for me at least), my 18 dex rogue doesn't actually have any points in dex. Just gear. He's currently at 15str 12 int, 14 speed and 9 constitution, if I completely optimise for him alone and not the rest of my party he reaches 17str 17dex, 15int, 9con and 14spd. He's only level 17 though.

17str 17 dex 15 int 14 spd:

daggers drawn now averages 735 crit. That's 490 damage per ap on a dagger axe hybrid optimised for using the dex skills as well as the strength skills, flurry does 707 crit. Cripple does 709 average. Lacerate/precise incision 880 average. The big benefit is versatility and damage potential.

Anyway my point is, this build is good, different, but strong in its own right.

[Kroma]

Hi i just up this post,

I like your theorycrafting but you missed one essential point according to me, bully talent.
Since Xbow as you mentionned is more based on normal hit, then bully is mandatory.
So your theorycrafting is kind of wrong since you missed 50% dmg on normal hit ( for the part where you compare normal shot dmg / AP and skill dmg / AP ).
If you take the talent into account then normal hit beat all skill dmg per AP on mono target ( since bully doesnt work on marksman skills ).

So Xbow may be viable for a better mono target damage oriented build to balance your party if you already got heavy AoE spells.

Btw what is arrow spray mono target dps / AP ? ( i know it is an AoE but how many dmg per target does it deal ? ).

PS : Does Dex increase dmg of marksman skill ? If not how many dex are trully mandatory ?

[mr.raider2]

Does bully only work with knocked down in EE? Or does it still work with slow and crippled. Rangers have no way to apply the knock down effect, so they are dependent on another party member to set up the knock down.

[Ssenkrad_II]

Цитата допису mr.raider2:

Does bully only work with knocked down in EE? Or does it still work with slow and crippled. Rangers have no way to apply the knock down effect, so they are dependent on another party member to set up the knock down.

Still works on slowed, crippled...

Actually rangers have some of the best knockdown in game- IMO. Antler + Knife = Knockdown Arrowhead, Knockdown Arrowhead + Shaft = Knockdown Arrow- this deals crushing damage which for levels 1-10 is prime, will cost you 4AP, never miss (so use ranged power stance), and has a knockdown chance.

Oil Barrel + Arrowhead = Slowdown Arrowhead, Slowdown Arrow = Slow which also stacks Bully...

Bully is hit and miss for me on Ranger as it uses a Talent (which are limited on my Ranger builds) and it rarely gets used (if at all?) on abilities such as Rain of Arrows.

[JX83]

This analysis uses 15 dex which is outdated by my preferences and experiences. Now I'm an advocate of 22 dex. With higher dex, EM skills do more damage which improves efficiency numbers for bows.

Believe it or not, this analysis heavily favors xbows because it assumes 100% hit chance. To achieve that, you're gonna need to do one of the following:

1. shoot from close enough range and without power stance
2. hard CC the target
3. use farseer

Using option 1 will limit your attack range. Options 2 and 3 require AP and that is not included in the calculations (they'll hurt the calculations quite badly). Bows using special arrows or EM skills require nothing except for the target to be in range and a clear path for the arrow(s).

As for bully, it's not free. Applying slow/crippled/knockdown costs AP and is not guaranteed to land unless you spend even more AP to ensure it does land. You'll also be required to reapply it if switching to a target without the debuff.

[Kroma]

Sure but your calculation should take any best circonstance into consideration even if it is unlikely to happen 100% of the time, if i m not mistaken you did this post to see the difference beetwen bow and xbow so you need to take into account any situtation possible with every min max talent.

Bully will always have use most of the time since you will use abilities when mob are not CCed and will use normal hit when they are under nay effect that proc bully, you just have to choose which is best at which moment ( hence this post, show that normal hit is the best mono target dmg source if you have bully but spell is better if bully is not up ). Mage / Str char are here to apply the necessary CC for Bully to proc on high priority target.

If you are more abilities/special arrow oriented and plan to be hybrid dex + anything, i think bully is kind of a waste talent since you will have way more option than just use normal hit.
So i would not go for bully if i play bow, because i ll try to maximise my dmg potential and only use abilities or special arrows.
But if i choose to play xbow build, bully can be a good talent since you dont have others talent that really increase your dmg output, and if you really want to make a difference, it's with your normal hit otherwise why would you go xbow in the first place ?

My opinion is xbow can be decent physical mono target dps in a lot of situation where a melee character would have to moove to get his dps out. It is probably best to use this build with a 4 man party since if you plan to use normal hit your party will lack a bit of spell and CC and you need other char to apply CC and proc bully for you.

I did a little run test with a xbow char, and it just rekt anything after lvl 3 the dmg output is insane and i didnt experienced any other build that could do that much dps early on while being reliable in almost any situation ( due to being a range dps ).

[Ssenkrad_II]

Best part of using crossbow?

Not having to "reload" and being able to "fire fast" (click shoot, click move, click shoot again for more instant bolts) makes taking things down like animals or objects in the world a breeze...

Shooting a bow is SOOOO slow, and most of the time the animals have already run away, hahaha... VERY frustrating...

[Kroma]

lol i didnt know that xD
xbow is the best

[JX83]

You keep mentioning single (mono) target damage so I presume your argument is basically that crossbows are comparable in the single target game. So let's assume 100% crit rate, free 100% hit rate, and free bully debuff (none of these are realistic).

As I pointed out earlier, 100% crit, 100% hit xbow has 252.3 dmg/AP.

With bully in effect, it will bump up to 378.45 dmg/AP.

Since we're talking about single target, I'll use the best single target EM skill, Array Spray.

At 21 dexterity Array Spray does 294-521 (407.5 average) *16 damage.

407.5*16=6520

6520 dmg / 7 AP = 931.43

Bows will win in the single target game as well.

[Balkoth]

This isn't relevant to the Bow part of the discussion, but for people who were following the DW/2H bit I'd suggest you look at this thread for analysis: https://steamcommunity.com/app/373420/discussions/0/357285398697942369/

JX83 (the author of this post) made a post here which I presume means he didn't see any glaring errors: https://steamcommunity.com/app/373420/discussions/0/357285398697942369/#c357285562485698662

[bingammj]

The last 9 posts before yours were back on topic with the Bows vs Crossbows discussion. Not sure what the point of this was?