Bows are better

[JX83]

Having finished my first playthrough, I've decided to write a series of posts to share my knowledge on optimizing combat efficiency. These posts will range from analysis on why x is better than y to straight up abusively OP ♥♥♥♥.

Bows are better than crossbows

First, let's look at the differences between a level 20 crafted bow and xbow (I omitted tormented soul and scope which will be on both weapons)

Bow
163-289 piercing
48-86 tenebrium
6% crit rate
200% crit damage
+3 speed

Crossbow
180-318 piercing
53-95 tenebrium
8% crit rate
200% crit damage
-0.9 movement

What you can do with a bow/xbow can essentially be broken down into 3 things:
1. basic attack
2. special arrows
3. expert marksman skills

1 can miss and can crit
2 and 3 cannot miss and cannot crit

Bows will always be superior to xbows when using 2 and 3 because bows have higher non-crit damage with 6 bow spec. Crossbow spec increases crit rate and crit damage: 2 and 3 can't crit so it has zero effect on 2 and 3. There's no need to compare their respective efficiency in 2 and 3. So the question is, do xbow basic attacks ever become more efficient than bow special arrows or EM skills? I'll be comparing xbow 1 to bow 1, 2, 3.


Case 1:
For this case, I'll assume 100% accuracy which can be achieved by hard CCing the enemy or if you're really really really desperate, Farseer.
Below is what a basic attack looks like for a bow and xbow at level 20 (taken from the stat screen)

Bow basic attack (7 perception = 5 base +2 from scope)
392-695
*543.5 average non-crit damage
16% crit rate (+2 perception +5 leadership +6 gear +3 compassionate)
200% crit multiplier
*630.46 average damage per shot in the long term
*157.62 dmg/AP

Crossbow basic attack (7 perception = 5 base +2 from scope)
303 - 538 (+10% leadership, +20% power stance)
*420.5 average non-crit damage
45% (+2(perception) +5(leadership) +8(gear) +3(compassionate) +27(6 xbow spec))
300% crit damage (6 xbow spec)
*798.95 average damage per shot in the long term
*159.79 dmg/AP

For calculating average damage per shot in the long term:
(avg non-crit dmg)*[(1-crit rate)+(crit mult)*(crit rate)]
NOTE: this is effectively +1% dmg per 1% crit for bows and +2% dmg per 1% crit for xbows

Already you can see the xbow is only slightly better than the bow with no points invested in perception. For a weapon that's supposedly better at basic attacks, it's not much better.


Case 2: I lied, I'm not going to analyze case 2. Instead, I'll just write some comments on it. It depends on the enemy. If an enemy is really weak to crushing/elemental damage, special arrows can really ♥♥♥♥ them up. Some of the extreme cases are double damage against elementals. In those cases, xbow basic attacks will never "catch up." But case 2 is really just "it depends."


Case 3:
Crossbow basic attacks can increase in average damage per shot by increasing perception. So for the comparison of xbow basic attack and bow EM skills, I'll be looking at how much perception is required for a xbow to "catch up."

First, let's start off with the efficiency of EM skills used with a bow:

Richochet
529-938
*183.38 dmg/AP (per target hit)

Barrage
(353-626) * 3
*244.75 dmg/AP

Splintered Arrow
1274-2259
*252.36 dmg/AP

Arrow Spray
(235-417) * 16
*745.14

Earlier I showed that 1% crit increases average xbow damage per shot by 2%. You can get 45% crit rate for free. After that, you must invest attribute points or get +perception gear. So for this I'll use the formula:
420.5*(100%+90%+perception*2%)/5 = avg dmg per shot / AP
100% is the base damage,
90% is the avg dmg increase from free crit
1 perception over 5 = 1% crit (note: for this formula, it does NOT include the scope bonus which is already included in the free crit)
5 is the AP cost of a xbow basic attack

With 21 total perception (14 points invested) xbow is at 183.34 dmg/AP, just under Richochet. At 22 total perception (15 point investment) xbow basic attack beats bow richochet at 185.02 dmg/AP.
At 100% crit rate, Xbow basic attack reaches 252.3 dmg/AP. That's better than barrage but worse than splintered arrow.


Other things to consider:

Every point you put into perception is a point you're not putting in speed. You get less AP per turn and therefore less shots per turn. With this in mind, I'm not sure if xbow is truely stronger than bow in basic attacks once the whole picture is taken into account.

Free +3 speed: bows get it, xbows don't (unless you want to sacrifice 8% crit which would hurt xbows even more)

Mobility: -0.9 movement on xbows, zero penalty on bows

Just to recap:
xbow basic attack is only slightly better than bow basic attack with no investment in perception
bow special arrows and EM skills are always superior to xbow equivalents
xbow basic attack exceeds bow EM skills only after massive investment in perception (except for splintered arrow and arrow spray)

Bows are better.

[Ssenkrad_II]

Some questions, thank you for the post-

1. Why is a bow special arrow better than a xbow special arrow? Both cost the same AP while xbow deals slightly more damage, not seeing why bow would be better?

2. Raw damage effects skills, including EM skills, with xbows raw damage being higher wouldn't xbows EM skills also be considered "better" because they deal more damage? And/or are you assuming 5 points in both xbow and bow skill? In which case what are the final stats on weapons after skill % increases?

3.Crafted a few bows and never saw a +Spd? Is that a rare optional? Doesn't the Xbow come with one random as well?

[JX83]

1/2. The math assumes 6 xbow/bow spec. In my analysis of case 1, I'm showing what a basic attack looks like with the spec, power stance, and leadership in play. With bow spec increasing damage, special arrows and EM skills will scale proportionally thus outdamaging xbow.

3. Yes, you can get +speed on bows. I've been able to reliably craft it with save scumming. Tbh, I don't know if it's possible on xbows. If it is, you're trading crit for speed which will further hurt xbows in the dmg/AP department.

[goumindong]

Because the raw damage on bows is modified by the bow skill but the raw damage on crossbows is not modified by The crossbow skill.

It's worth nothing that for one vs two handed weapons this does not hold true. Man-at-arms skills can crit and so get the advantage of a high crit rate.

[JX83]

WW and Flurry can crit and miss. Crippling Strike cannot crit or miss.

[Ssenkrad_II]

Just went into an old game and crafted some weapons...

Your weapons you crafted and are shown you forgot to add more damage to them by crafting an extra bowstring on them...

Bow: 171-303 with 51-90 tenebrium
Xbow: 189-334 with 57-99 tenebrium

Both the bow and Xbow come with random stat (dex, spd) or "an extra AP" enchantment

50% increase damage for bow at 5 and 55% at 6 puts bow well over Xbow for raw damage. The only thing I am unsure about is if EM skills such as "Rain of Arrows" have crit chances... Other than that due to Xbow skill being nerf'd from original to EE (wasn't aware of that) and now adding crit chance and damage everything else seems spot on...

[JX83]

Did you a load a level 21-22 save? This was done at level 20. I'm 100% sure I added the second bow string.

[Ssenkrad_II]

Unsure of my level, I must have been 21-22!

I did however confirm that you could get attributes on crafted Xbows... But not very relevant since bow skill now adds that 50-55% extra damage that the Xbow skill does not...

[Ssenkrad_II]

May I make a suggestion? I'd like your opinion on

2-Handed vs Dual Swords vs Dual Daggers vs Dual Maces

I have run the numbers and obviously I stand with dual swords, even before you factor in a dual Buffalo Sabre + Sword of Planets (crafted lv 20). I get this conversation bogged down in my guide a LOT... It would be nice for you to thread it out with pro's and con's and get the convo going.

[JX83]

Aside from nails + branch, are there any other ways to craft a mace?

[Ssenkrad_II]

nope, and it can't ever use tenebrium, would have to use joshuas spice or essence

[JX83]

In terms of basic attack efficiency:

Sword of Planets + axe > dual axe > dual daggers > dual maces

I don't know where dual swords and 2H axes fall but I do know:

dual axe > dual swords
dual axe > 2H axe

Yes, I did the math out for all of the above.

Now to talk about each weapon individually...

Crafted maces have very low damage compared to crafted swords and axes. Anaconda will not make up for that. Crafted maces can't compete. Maybe bought maces can but I have my doubts since crafted weapons are so decisively better than bought weapons. I expect crafted axes to be better than vendor maces. Alas I don't have evidence and I will not go ingame to prove it.

Daggers are slightly less efficient than axes when backstabbing. What daggers can do that axes can't is roll +3 speed allowing a free +6 speed on dual daggers. This is the weapon set I favor for whoever is going to set up the battlefield since she'll mainly be supporting rather than killing.

Swords have slightly higher average damage than axes but can't roll crit. This makes them inferior.

Axes are the best non-unique crafted one handers.

Sword of Planets just straight up outperforms axes due to all the bonuses.

Buffalo Sabre, here's where it gets complicated. To better understand what I'm about to say, read my late game respec post. If you're dual wielding, you'll get +10 strength from gear (amulet, sarong, belt, dual tormented souls). At 5 base strength, you won't need to invest any points because you'll already be at 15 strength. The Buffalo Sabre is basically just a sword with +2 strength. That +2 strength adds very little value. It can do one of two things:
1. guard against weakness unequipping your weapons
2. allow you to use a amulet/belt/sarong without strength

Case 1 is rare. In case 2, the best you can trade strength for is resistance to one element. The other option is to trade it for +1 dual wielding. Belts can't have strength and dual wielding. 6 dual wielding (+5% damage) is inferior to +8% crit. Now if your build was short on skill points, you can get 4 DW and +1 from the belt. That's probably the best case I can think of for the Buffalo Sabre. So all in all, I consider the Buffalo Sabre to be below a crafted axe.

Two handed axes... What I keep hearing is that Flurry and WW only use your main hand weapon. If that's true then late game two handed axe's strength lies in these two abilities. It comes at the cost of inferior basic attack and greater stat investment. Level 20 two handed axes require 16 strength and allow only 1 tormented soul. Compared to dual axes, it requires an extra 3 point investment in strength (16 str req vs 15 str req and -2 str from missing tormented soul). I would only use this on Madora.

My optimal strength setup would be Sword of Planets + Axe.

For support, dual daggers.

[goumindong]

Originally posted by Ssenkrad_II:

May I make a suggestion? I'd like your opinion on

2-Handed vs Dual Swords vs Dual Daggers vs Dual Maces

I have run the numbers and obviously I stand with dual swords, even before you factor in a dual Buffalo Sabre + Sword of Planets (crafted lv 20). I get this conversation bogged down in my guide a LOT... It would be nice for you to thread it out with pro's and con's and get the convo going.

Edit: For some reason its not saving my paragraph spacing so will maybe format this later. General thing is that 2 daggers>All for pure AP damage when backstabbing. Then comes two axes OR two handed axes depending on your level of perception and bonus crit.



well this is pretty simple if the base damages/damage table from the original has not changed.

A Custom Made Dagger does 2.25 damage for 3 AP (2.125 for superior) per level scaling. Can double on a backstab. For 4.5 or 4.25 /3 AP. Twice for 9 or 8
A Custom Made Sword does 3.6 (3.2 superior). Twice for 7.2 / 6.4 [Superior axe is 3.6 so use unless using the unique combo]
A Custom Made 2 handed sword does 5.4/5.525/5.2 once for 4 AP but, assuming base perception it will deal 50% more damage due to crits[this goes up with more perception for 8.1/8.2875/7.8 per 4 AP. Per 3 AP this is 6.075/6.215/5.85
A Custom Made 2 handed axe is 5.85/5.95/5.814 -> 8.775/8.925/8.721 -> 6.58/6.69/6.54



Can't do maces since i don't know their base stats and since you can't really craft them. Dual Swords has added bonus of craftable uniques which changes thing


But clearly then If you're backstabbing Daggers>Swords. If you're not able to easily backstab then 2 axes>daggers but consider 2 handed axes. If you're primarily concerned with using abilities then 2 Handed axes > all not only because if their highish per AP damage [nearly on par with 1 handed axes] but also because of their very high ability damage. Because two handed weapons do not increase the AP it takes to use a skill they're superior to one handed+skill in terms of ability damage as well.


Its possible, due to the increased preception and crit scaling on two handed weapons that the two handed axe will surpass the dual weilded swords (though unlikely given the unique swords) even in terms of damage/AP in addition to damage/skills.

[Ssenkrad_II]

Are you upgrading mace with moonstone? If so I would love to see those numbers...

[JX83]

Lv 20 dagger: 79-157 piercing, 23-47 tenebrium, assume 100% crit for backstab

Lv 20 1H axe: 155-275 slashing, 46-82 tenebrium, +8% crit each

Lv 20 2H axe: 235-423 slashing, 71-127 tenebrium, +8% crit

Assuming compassionate, 5 weapon skill and 6 leadership are all in play
Compassionate +3% crit
6 leadership +5% crit and +10% damage (this can and will be ignored since it affects all weapons the same)
5 DW reduces cost to 3 AP and removes damage penalty
5 2H +25% crit, 300% crit multiplier

avg dmg / AP = (min+max)/2 * (number of weapons) * [(1-crit rate)+(crit*crit multiplier)] / (AP cost)

daggers: ((79+23)+(157+47))/2*(2)*[(1-1)+(1*2)]/3=204
axes: ((155+46)+(275+82))/2 *(2)*[(1-(.03+.05+.08+.08))+((.03+.05+.08+.08)*2)]/3=230.64
2H axe: ((235+71)+(423+127))/2 * (1) * [(1-(.03+.05+.08+.25))+((.03+.05+.08+.25)*3)] / (4)=194.74

Worth noting is daggers' free +6 speed that puts her at a +3 AP advantage. In some situations, daggers will be able to outdamage axes simply by being able to deliver more attacks.

[Ssenkrad_II]

Couple things to note:

1. Assuming 100% backstab is fine, however you should also assume that a lot if not most of that extra AP will be used in movement or abilities to get you into position- and that extra AP is only really factored in the last 25-50% of the game as before that you don't gain that great of a speed buff, thus the needed extra movement will hurt you even more for the first 25-75% of the game. Also, as has been confirmed in the past by Larian, certain abilities/skills don't stack on daggers backstab- I don't have the list on me but such things such as "bully" were on the list. This makes a huge difference.

2. This is of course ignoring entirely "damage type", which for this game "crushing" is stacked in its advantage. At least 75% of the game takes extra damage from crushing and reduced from piercing and around 50% take reduced from slashing.

3. 6 in dual adds damage % damage

4. And you might not like Buffalo Sabre but its raw damage at 20 is higher than axe

5. Dual Wield doesn't care which two weapons you have in your hand, meaning for the first 50-75% of the game you can use maces (which give extra damage vs everything while everything else takes reduced) as well as being able to use the uniques such as "clobbering time". If you really felt that for the last 25-50% axes were treating you better (even after anaconda) you could switch to axes. I know for the twins switching every dual to using ice/water wands is overkill.

6. All of this uses tenebrium which screws with the raw damage. Tenebrium heals final bosses so isn't even used. This makes things such as "Sword of Planets + Joshua's Spice" even more useful.