A subjective design flaw

[dragohole]

I understand that you're playing as a character in an MMORPG, but was this design choice really necessary? Because it seems to be the justification for having all these grindy, boring quests of the "kill-x-monsters\bring-x-loot" type. I like the exploration\parkour bits, but the grindfest wears me out. The completionist in me tells me to take the grindy quests, but it's honestly a chore and isn't enjoyable or rewarding (the reward for completing such a quest is literally just some numbers in the form of exp\gold, not even good loot). The loot drop system adds to it, since now you have to choose farming spots\routes in order to maintain the grade.

What I'm saying is, why make it a singleplayer MMORPG? The game would've been much better if it didn't have this BS (IMO). But then again, if that's what the devs wanted, then whatever.

[lachsen]

I think it's interesting to watch this thread as we have two polar opinion, one saying CrossCode is "too grindy / too slow leveling" the other saying "you level too fast".

Just want to point out we want to improve things in that regard:
1. We'll make it much harder to "overlevel" essentially, enemies will give less EXP when you are beyond their level. That means reaching the level of the enemy is easy, but getting beyond it will be harder. That way you can afford to keep grinding without ending up too overleveled
2. We'll reduce the amount of basic grindy quest where it's only about killing enemies or collecting items without any background story - that or we will move them to a later point so players don't get the wrong first impression about quests.

Anyway, this boils down to being a balancing issue. We plan to do adaptions over the course of developing and actually hope that people will help us with testing things out. This is actually one thing where Early Access really shines. It's incredibly hard to find the right leveling curve if you're a small team and you don't have dedicated testers. However, if people in the early access program are willing to testplay portions of the games with respect to grinding/leveling, it really is a great help to tweak and optimize these things.

[Horoai]

Hey, I just want to chime in again and point a few things out.

Originally posted by lachsen:

1. We'll make it much harder to "overlevel" essentially, enemies will give less EXP when you are beyond their level. That means reaching the level of the enemy is easy, but getting beyond it will be harder. That way you can afford to keep grinding without ending up too overleveled
2. We'll reduce the amount of basic grindy quest where it's only about killing enemies or collecting items without any background story - that or we will move them to a later point so players don't get the wrong first impression about quests.

This exact change will succeed in making the game too grindy for good. I know it's an action game as well as an RPG but it has always been a valid strategy to outgrind the challenge. And what exactly is wrong with that?
This type of game has always offered 2 ways to beat it:
1) Practice and prepare outside the challenge zone and beat it through good preperration. Killing monsters over and over again means you're excercising your twitch skills nonetheless.
2) Repeat the actual challenge over and over again until you finally make it through.

Both paths can be either fun or antagonizing depending on your personal taste but having a choice is the important part here. I know many people like to forego the grind and rush through the bosses / dungeons (for example, they didn't spend time collecting heart pieces in zelda). Others like to stock up as much as possible (like collecting every bottle, quiver extension and heart piece available at any given progression) and ease the challenge with extra preperational effort.

Edit: Personally, I like to mix up both approaches. For example, I can't wait to see the dungeons so I almost always do them right away. On the other hand, there are some challenging quests that I just couldn't and didn't want to attempt over and over - like the mind controlled mechgoat lair - so I just kept killing mechgoats outside for an extra level, a better headgear and some practice in avoiding their attacks. It played out wonderfully and made the challenge beatable in an enjoyable way.

You should NOT look down on this as an issue because it's actually a crucial part of your game. As of yet, nobody is forced to grind. The fact is people can just start skipping quests they don't enjoy. Likewise, I'm not interested in being overly pressured into the facerushing the challenge approach.

As I said before, I feel like the current balance is perfectly fine and leaves enough leeway for both tastes. Please don't knock that on the head. Making grind less effective will only succeed in making me grind more for the same results when I don't like the challenge ahead.

Edit2:
The other benefit of handing out more quests and EXP than necessary is that you can skip some quests and reserve them for your future xth playthrough. You won't be miss out on anything and will still have something to discover the next time you play the game.

[lachsen]

Hey there,

you might be fine with the current approach but several people voice criticism with the way things are right now, so I think it's at least worth to attempt to tweak some things.

I agree that having the choice to rush things or to take your time and grind is a good thing, I just think that the current version grinding is just a bit too fast. This is actually due to a change of the EXP curve we did with version 0.8 and I simply plan to undo this.

I do not think that this will make the game much more grindy heavy because reaching the recommended level works roughly as fast as before as long as you try to fight enemies roughly around your level. The only thing that is more difficult is get beyond the recommended level - or at least it takes more time.

I don't even think this will make the game substantially more difficult for people who like to grind and be overpowered. The reason for that is very simply and something that surprisingly very few players seems to understand: Your level is not as important as your equipment.
Being 3-5 levels beyond the recommendation won;t make you overpowered. Having the most optimal equipment from traders of that area - that will make you overpowered.

And it will essentially stay that way. People who like to grind can still get the overpowered equipment but if they do so they should not end up way beyond the recommended level. I think this is more about comparing numbers than anything else in the end.

[Horoai]

Originally posted by lachsen:

Hey there,
you might be fine with the current approach but several people voice criticism with the way things are right now, so I think it's at least worth to attempt to tweak some things.

To be fair, several people have also voiced they're fine with how it is now and the pro side is always underrepresented in forums / unasked feedback by the nature of things.

That said I see your point and I didn't know about the previous exp curve. However, I also keep in mind the impact of level on your power might significantly change once the circuits and all abilities are fully operational and released. Equipment might not be as dominant of a factor anymore as it is right now when that happens.

The bottomline is: As long as you are aware of both approaches and try to keep them im balance instead of killing one of them I'm happy.

[esotericist]

Is there any chance you could include a setting for XP rate? I've known a few games (even MMOs!) that allowed you to slow or even turn off XP gain, if you wanted.

That might be a way of mitigating the issue for those who are unhappy with levelling too fast.

[Mystokai]

I would say that the main culprit of ''overleveling'' are ''collect x items'' quests.
Some might be lucky to get all required items by defeating/collecting less than 10 units,
Others might be unlucky enough to still miss 1 item after their 50th unit...

As of now, my current xp stats based on ''Records'' tab are:
level 25, roughly ~12hrs played (by completing everything accessible, Finished temple mine),
total xp gained: 24,728
---> from enemies: 18,239 (73,75%)
---> from quests: 6,489 (26,24%)
And it is mostly because of grinding for that last item.

But to tell you the truth I havent really felt too ''overpowered'',
Having higher level gives you very minor stat increases from each lvl,
on top of that Circuit upgrades are % based not flat, which makes it so that main power comes from the gear you have.
Which was exactly what I got from completing quests and just so happened to also grind additional materials to buy a better gear.

So far it has been just fine, I dont see current xp curve as an issue,
If worst comes to worst, mobs will most likely give less xp sooner, when you are above their level, ... however there are always people who just like to be above enemy level, and will grind for those ''extra xp'' before advancing further.

[dragohole]

Originally posted by Syad:

There is a problem alright, but it's exactly the opposite of what the OP is saying.

Example: the presave for the spheromancer duel starts you off at lvl10.
Doing the quests the natural way, you arrive at that location at lvl13, and whoop his rear end off. PROBLEM. This behavior is indicative of all the new games and represents a design where quests are not only grindy, but also downright harmful for the game, gimping or removing all challenge. I found myself avoiding doing quests, in order not to become too powerful. NOT how it should be in a retro, single player mmo, which supposedly the game tries to represent.

The game should be made as the OP claims it to be, note he didn't actually play it and just assumes stuff.


You should DO stuff to SURVIVE.

Ehh. I didn't play what? The game? Check my profile, I did. It's you who's assuming stuff.

[esotericist]

Originally posted by Ser Jumbo:

Originally posted by Syad:

There is a problem alright, but it's exactly the opposite of what the OP is saying.

Example: the presave for the spheromancer duel starts you off at lvl10.
Doing the quests the natural way, you arrive at that location at lvl13, and whoop his rear end off. PROBLEM. This behavior is indicative of all the new games and represents a design where quests are not only grindy, but also downright harmful for the game, gimping or removing all challenge. I found myself avoiding doing quests, in order not to become too powerful. NOT how it should be in a retro, single player mmo, which supposedly the game tries to represent.

The game should be made as the OP claims it to be, note he didn't actually play it and just assumes stuff.


You should DO stuff to SURVIVE.

Ehh. I didn't play what? The game? Check my profile, I did. It's you who's assuming stuff.

Yeah, I might disagree with your opinions and conclusions, but I'd readily agree over four hours is more than long enough to reach them in a game of this type.

[dragohole]

Originally posted by esotericist:

Originally posted by Ser Jumbo:

Ehh. I didn't play what? The game? Check my profile, I did. It's you who's assuming stuff.

Yeah, I might disagree with your opinions and conclusions, but I'd readily agree over four hours is more than long enough to reach them in a game of this type.

Not sure if sarcasm or not. LOL

[esotericist]

Originally posted by Ser Jumbo:

Originally posted by esotericist:

Yeah, I might disagree with your opinions and conclusions, but I'd readily agree over four hours is more than long enough to reach them in a game of this type.

Not sure if sarcasm or not. LOL

Not sarcasm, I promise!

I think Crosscode is a game that could be readily evaluated for the properties you and I are looking for (albeit in different directions) in a couple hours, easily.

[Dangerous Beans]

-.-

Gonna trust the dev...
Gonna trust...
Please don't ruin the game to satisfy people who've barely touched it...
Trust...
Trust...
Trust...

[Shadowfury]

Except there's no such thing as a "single player MMORPG", lol.

[RazielOneX]

I don't mind a few "grindy" quests as long as the music is good and the gameplay full of fast paced action and fun. CrossCode succeeds in both categories by far.

[sgtwhiskeyjack]

Is it really a grind? Is it just like getting the Winterspring Frostsabre in WoW? No
I find the controls great, but requiring quite a bit of skill, so be like me and count it all as practice.