HP Regen is OP

[skinneejoe]

Hey Devs!

I love using HP Regen equipment. But as much as I love it, it seems OP.

I have equipped a couple Diakons, a couple other HP regen pieces of equipment and I have used my circuits to focus on getting more HP regen. My total HP regen percentage is 13% and my health is just breaking 1000. I just finished the Temple Mine dungeon. I beat the dungeon boss, without giving much thought to dodging and when he exploded my life was at about 900/1000. I finish most battles with 100% health without even trying much. And I never use buffs or consumables.

That said, it's awesome. I feel unstoppable. BUT it robs some of the fun. However, I don't think the solution is just to nerf the HP regen percentage. I think that would destory the "unstoppable" feeling and make HP Regen feel useless. So here's some alternatives that may work:

1. Have HP Regen regenerate the percentage of health you actually have instead of your total health. This way the lower your health gets the less effective HP Regen is. This way if you can keep your health high, you still get that unstoppable feeling, but it's easy to lose it if you're not careful. I think this is the best solution because it brings back the importance of dodging and it makes consumables important again.

2. Have HP Regen reduce in effectiveness every 30-60 seconds of battle. This could work, but I don't think it's as good as solution 1. But this would make it important to finish battles quickly. The longer the battle the less you can rely on HP Regen.

3. Have HP Regen only work if you haven't taken damage for 20 seconds and only heal up to 3 times in a row every 10 seconds. This way you would need to avoid getting hit to benefit from HP Regen. And simply running away to heal would only heal you 3 times, then you have to get back into battle and get hurt before you can benefit again.

I think option one would work best way to solve the HP Regen issue and maintain the awesome feel of using it. Thanks for considering!!!

[chaosbringer42]

It gets worse, there has been a nice little nerf compared to how it used to be, as well as bosses and enemies start hitting quite a bit harder later on (its still OP as heck if you full build for it, but they are moving in the right direction).

The real problem is almost any build if you fully spec for it becomes godly in every instance except for 1-2 (in those 1-2 instances you will get crushed because your specialized build just cant do anything).

For instance, a Pin Body build can make you an unstoppable....blocker. Because everything kills itself hitting you (while you take reduced damage from the blocking :D). Or you can have a Perfect Guard build, where you get almost a full couple seconds to block and have it count as "perfect" allowing for easy block/counters, making for easy kills.

All in all I see the regen build as a crutch that can help people who dont have the reflexes to beat the game. To me thats a good thing, because there isnt a difficulty setting for the game, and this is a great game.

[R.Heart]

Originally posted by chaosbringer42:

For instance, a Pin Body build can make you an unstoppable....blocker. Because everything kills itself hitting you (while you take reduced damage from the blocking :D). Or you can have a Perfect Guard build, where you get almost a full couple seconds to block and have it count as "perfect" allowing for easy block/counters, making for easy kills.

So what you're saying is there's multiple ways of building that give you a powerful edge in combat. If you ask me, that means the opposite of OP, it means there are different ways to play the game that make it easier based on your play-style and skill level.

I'll put that aside for now to share some stuff from my experience.

Having played far enough to obtain all 4 elements and beat the final dungeon boss atop the Grand Kryskajo, I can tell you that, over time, the effectiveness of HP regen builds does drop off. Bigger bosses do bigger burst damage, and dodging gets harder and harder. Even basic enemies in Autumn's Fall and Gaia's garden do reach a point they are tough enough to give you a rough time if you just try to go in there tanking everything.

Personally I haven't even figured out how to use the shield reliably, much less get 'perfect' blocks, so I usually focus on maximum melee damage and shield abilities on the circuit tree that reduce damage using SP, when dodging just isn't enough.

I think the balancing is fine for now.

[chaosbringer42]

Originally posted by R.Heart:

Originally posted by chaosbringer42:

For instance, a Pin Body build can make you an unstoppable....blocker. Because everything kills itself hitting you (while you take reduced damage from the blocking :D). Or you can have a Perfect Guard build, where you get almost a full couple seconds to block and have it count as "perfect" allowing for easy block/counters, making for easy kills.

So what you're saying is there's multiple ways of building that give you a powerful edge in combat. If you ask me, that means the opposite of OP, it means there are different ways to play the game that make it easier based on your play-style and skill level.

I'll put that aside for now to share some stuff from my experience.

Having played far enough to obtain all 4 elements and beat the final dungeon boss atop the Grand Kryskajo, I can tell you that, over time, the effectiveness of HP regen builds does drop off. Bigger bosses do bigger burst damage, and dodging gets harder and harder.

Personally I haven't even figured out how to use the shield reliably, much less get 'perfect' blocks, so I usually focus on maximum melee damage and shield abilities on the circuit tree that reduce damage using SP, when dodging just isn't enough.

I think the balancing is fine for now.

To me OP is a rediculously overpowered build in PVP, or something that makes you a rampaging god of destruction in PVE. So the fact that there are 10-11 ways to make yourself godly in all but 1 or 2 situations, makes them OP to me.

And yes, Perfect Guard is hard to pull off if you cant get timings right (much easier to dodge or block early for the damage reduction), but the counter chance can make even the hardest boss battle kind of a joke (especially if you built for it and have good timing).

Edit : Also, I dont think its a bad thing, the more OP choices can help worse players to beat the game, and it doesnt take anything away from me (I already did a rookie gear only run, and I will do so again after the game is fully released).

[R.Heart]

Originally posted by chaosbringer42:

Edit : Also, I dont think its a bad thing, the more OP choices can help worse players to beat the game, and it doesnt take anything away from me (I already did a rookie gear only run, and I will do so again after the game is fully released).

This just makes it sound like you're too good for us. There's only about 500 ways to customize your own difficulty level and it sounds like you're doing just fine even at max difficulty. Pick on someone your own size.

[chaosbringer42]

Originally posted by R.Heart:

Originally posted by chaosbringer42:

Edit : Also, I dont think its a bad thing, the more OP choices can help worse players to beat the game, and it doesnt take anything away from me (I already did a rookie gear only run, and I will do so again after the game is fully released).

This just makes it sound like you're too good for us. There's only about 500 ways to customize your own difficulty level and it sounds like you're doing just fine even at max difficulty. Pick on someone your own size.

I...dont understand the point of this post. I said there are quite a few OP build types, and said even though the trees arent the most balanced it doesnt matter much. Who am I picking on?

[R.Heart]

I'm just saying I don't think there is a way to bump the difficulty even higher for you. Saying that it's OP in the first place, and then revealing you've done rookie equipment only runs, seems like a smack in the face. So why complain in the first place?

[skinneejoe]

I may not be far enough along in the game to appreciate the curve in the difficulty level. I will play more and see how it goes.

I guess I was just surprised to win almost every battle with 100% health. Maybe that will change as it goes, but at this point it felt OP to me. But as is pointed out maybe it's just a way to cater to different play styles.

[Lioshi]

look, hp regen WAS op. they nerfed it so now you get hp every 10 seconds i believe. if you are good then hp regen will help you but if not then only slightly. plus dont forget that by putting everything into hp regen you are neglecting other things such as defence, attack etc. i like it very much and yet i dont fell its op. and i played this game for like 70 hours or so. maybe its op in low levels, but later on its not. just play more and youll see.
and in fact, even though i had high hp regen on (like 10%) i still managed to get to situations where i nearly died.
if the devs really want to change how hp regen works then i think that your first alternitive is the best one

[R.Heart]

Honestly I feel like all the best abilities are on the Circuits. And they include a little HP regen here and there. But I kind of wonder if there should be more that return HP based on how much damage you do, so you're not waiting 75%+ of the game for other means (Wave). Cuz I almost never use items and absolutely never even buy them. Just don't need to.

And really, the first thing I spring for on the Circuits is the scope buff that reduces aim-in time by 40%. I mean THAT feels a bit "OP" for as early as you can acquire it. There is no equipment you can get that even comes close at that stage, but oh man does it feel good to shoot that fast.

That's why I say there's just so many different things that really bump your powers, that I feel if it's not 'good' enough, or not challenging enough, or whatever, it's kind of a no-win scenario for the devs, who as far as I can see do NOT want to add options for difficulty or hard mode. That is just the impression I get.

I remember like, when I first got to Gaia's garden, as an example, I could face 2 or 3 of those evil Volt cats, but 4 I was toast. But there's a part in the Grand Kryskajo where you fight TWELVE, and I thought for sure I was never getting past. But I did, and I came away with about half health? And it wasn't because of Circuits or HP regen, it was just the sheer levels I had gained that allowed me to withstand the punishing blows better.

That's why I say there's really just no way to balance it better as long this game is as heavily influenced by RPGs as it is. If there is an obstacle you're having trouble with, there is ALWAYS a different option. You can get new equipment, or you can examine skill trees for new abilities, or just old-fashioned time and level grinding. And frankly, that aspect is something I love about this game, so I would advocate in strong opposition to changing it.

[Aquillion]

Originally posted by chaosbringer42:

To me OP is a rediculously overpowered build in PVP, or something that makes you a rampaging god of destruction in PVE. So the fact that there are 10-11 ways to make yourself godly in all but 1 or 2 situations, makes them OP to me.

If any focused build feels overpowered to you, though, then your real issue isn't "overpowered builds" but "wanting the game to be harder."

Which is really a different issue than any one build or anything like that. If that's your issue, you should be requesting a harder difficulty setting, not targeted nerfs (since it doesn't make sense to nerf everything.)

[skinneejoe]

Hi Guys, revisiting this topic again now that I've played through the game a bit more. I just made it to the half way point on the fajro temple. I beat the sandworm mini boss on my first attempt with full health as I dealt the final blow. Didn't give much thought to dodging, I just heal crazy fast. WIth my HP regen build not a single fight has been a challenge thus far. At this point in the game I really feel like I should start facing some challenges no matter what build I have made.

If HP Regen is meant to be an "easy mode" build then I guess that's fine, but it should alert players early in the game somehow. Like one of the game characters should tell you "Go with all HP regen equipment and circuits if you're finding things too difficult." Otherwise, casual players will likely not figure this out.

So I'm guessing it's not meant to be an "easy mode" in which case I still stand my initial assertion at this point - it's imbalanced.

[R.Heart]

You're still just not that far in. Faj'ro temple in general is still kind of child's play, especially once you've been all the way through Gaia's Garden and Kryskajo. Wait until you get to Autumn's Rise and start doing the raid. Wait until you start seeing wave bombs that are both hard to dodge and deal good chunk damage. Wait until you see the Shokats and the Behesloth, those will chew you to pieces if you're not prepared.

I'm in Sapphire Ridge now, and I'm honestly starting to realize HP regen is kind of useless. The enemies there love to counter your opening attack, have invulnerability states, and they hit hard when they swing, as well as being hard to dodge. Trying to chain fights for rank and rare drops is a nightmare.

It's kind of funny, I didn't even know what HP regen was until JUST before they nerfed it. I could manage to get by without but I died a lot to bosses. So if you're doing this well on your first playthrough, you're better off than I was.

[R.Heart]

Originally posted by chaosbringer42:

To me OP is a rediculously overpowered build in PVP, or something that makes you a rampaging god of destruction in PVE. So the fact that there are 10-11 ways to make yourself godly in all but 1 or 2 situations, makes them OP to me.

And yes, Perfect Guard is hard to pull off if you cant get timings right (much easier to dodge or block early for the damage reduction), but the counter chance can make even the hardest boss battle kind of a joke (especially if you built for it and have good timing).

Edit : Also, I dont think its a bad thing, the more OP choices can help worse players to beat the game, and it doesnt take anything away from me (I already did a rookie gear only run, and I will do so again after the game is fully released).

Somehow, I had you confused as the OC for this thread. Don't ask. I reread and now start to understand what's going on.

Would you have people changing their equipment to suit each situation they come across? Let me just say I would not play this game if it was like that, because OMG the pacing would be so broken. Maybe for boss fights? But see, this only works for people who have already played through the game, you're not going to know what you 'need' the first time you see something, and so it would go badly. Nobody likes to be thrown to the wolves with nothing but a stick to fight with, then forced to figure out they need to attach a sharp rock to make it a spear. There would have to be some kind of hint system for the first timers, or a way to use analyze on the boss before engaging it the way you can with mobs.

I think you're playing the wrong game man, I can't think of a single RPG that makes you change equipment for any reason other than better stats or oddball abilities. The whole point of customizing is to find out the way that works best for you to apply to as many situations as possible. Going into fights shouldn't be about the equipment you pick, but your ability to adapt to the different situations and develop new tactics. That's what makes this an 'action' RPG.

[skinneejoe]

I understand the game probably gets much harder, but my point is simply this - I'm starting to get a little bored of the battles because I don't even have to try. At this point I barely have to dodge anything. I sort of try to dodge but very rarely am I put in a position where I'm fighting for my life. To me boss battles and mini bosses should always invoke that kind of feeling. I'm waiting to see it with my current build.

To be clear, with my current build I'm healing about 300-350 health every 10 seconds. If I ever do find my self in a tough situation I just have to run around, away from enemy attacks for 10-30 seconds and I'm back in tip top shape. I dunno, it's just a really wierd way to play.

Also, I probably would have switched to a different build by now, but I'm determined to see this build through to the end to see if it really is imbalanced. I will keep everyone posted.

[R.Heart]

I'm just curious, why the crusade? If people want to play it the easy way let them. You can always choose to do something else, it's not like you're here to speak for the majority of us who think it's just fine. Do a different build, create the challenge level you want for yourself instead of butting in on other peoples' games, and what they think is 'fun.'

I'm really skeptical of 300+ hp every ten seconds, what that tells me is you are about 5 levels over everything you're coming across. Try going at it 5 levels BELOW and then come back and let me know what you think. Guarantee your tune will change. FYI, if you're spending that kind of time to grind your level up, the effect is the same as having like 30% HP regen because all your other stats are through the roof. You probably don't even need the regen at that point.