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38 
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-Exploring Grimm-
i am 100% confident in saying that the Nightmare Heart and Grimm are the same being, but... it's more than that. "Grimm", is just a Vessel.
the whole plan for the Ritual was for the Grimmchild + your body to replace Grimm. becoming "Grimm"... prolonging the life of The Nightmare Heart.
-Nightmare's Heart-
although technically the same beings, the Heart is separate from Grimm. the true ring-leader, you could say.
the Nightmare Heart never actually steps into the physical world. it experiences it through Grimm. we enter the Dream world through Grimm's mind when seeing the Nightmare Heart.
the only physical presence is the sound of the heartbeat when approaching a sleeping Grimm. (something to note for now)
the Nightmare Heart and the Ritual is generally the easiest part of this thread to understand at face value.
*Scarlet Flames feed the Grimmchild
*Grimm kills you as sacrifice
*Grimmchild, presumably uses you as a Vessel to kill Grimm, and become Grimm.
but the Abyss Creature, takes a bit more exploring to see how closely related to the Nightmare Heart it actually is.
-Abyss Creature-
in both areas that we can see the Abyss Creature, there is an abundance of Lifeblood.
much in the same way that Scarlet Flames are essence of the Nightmare Heart, Lifeblood seems to be the same for the Abyss Creature.
i've mentioned a number of times now about the "sacrifice" needed for Grimm's Ritual.
but what reasons do i have to tie Joni to being the sacrifice for the Abyss Creature?
the Lifeblood, and how representative of it that Joni is.
there is one large difference between the Nightmare Heart and Abyss Creature.
-the Scarlet Flames are creations of the Nightmare Heart.
-Lifeblood, created the Abyss Creature.
Lifeblood, as you would imagine, is the essence of life.
the Abyss Creature was manufactured to work similarly to the Nightmare Heart, but the Lifeblood was stolen to do so.
-Why Joni?-
she held the secret to giving Lifeblood "form".
could someone else have been sacrificed if they just used the charm and knowledge, in the goal of creating the Abyss Creature?
yes, probably.
however, if Joni knew someone else would die, her kind heart may have offered her own life to save another.
either that, or the Lifeblood needed to be from an extra pure heart. this isn't clear, but her resting peacefully on the altar leads me to believe she sacrificed herself.
since it's called Joni's "Blessing", i'm also lead to believe it was given willingly.
in closing this chapter. again, the Abyss Creature was manufactured. this was also manufactured during the time period the Pale King was in "hiding".
to answer 1 of many theories, the "door" to the Abyss was opened because of this Abyss Creature. however, after reading chapter 3, you'll find that it's hard to decipher from which side the door opened...
if you take 1 thing away from this quote, take the thought that during the time the Pale King was hiding... he was reachable.
he's not dead during this period. so what is he doing?
-i've given thought about how i want to write into this and, i've decided not to write a chapter 3. my goal is to keep sections contained, and chapter 3 introduces too much for here. i'll cover this section in another thread.
the subject will be "memory"-
how do i come to such a conclusion?
to start, although it's possible The Knight's interaction is the first, it's also possible that neither PK or The Knight had the first interaction.
as quoted in the prior post:
this line gives the possibility that the PK had help with any sort of planning/crafting.
i'll cover more into that on the "memory" thread, but Quirrel does have many coincidences around this subject.
now... for Grimm... as also quoted earlier.
not only does Grimm substantiate that he's aware of the PK, he also knows of his "crafts".
a lot of this game, and more-so the PK in particular, is shrouded in secrecy. even from each other.
a secret held within his own Troupe. which is a topic in itself due to how closely hive-minded the Troupe is.
with all this in mind, it's either a huge lead. or a huge oversight.
why not Hornet?
Hornet could have attempted to stave off the "Ritual", as it is her role as the protector of the kingdom. however, i don't think she would have sacrificed Joni.
i believe a lot of what happened in the Howling Cliffs was a secret, even to her.
not sure what you're referring too.
i have some topics that cover this better but, i'll give a response.
just beyond the corpse of the PK, there is an egg that is hatched.
keep in mind that the White Palace you are visiting, is a memory.
this is (imo), a signification of his rebirth. not the actual egg he rebirthed from.
moving beyond cryptic quotes...
when The Knight Dreamnails the egg in the Abyss, i believe you witness 2 memories being played out at the same time.
1. the climb- this is your memory as The Knight. technically it's the memory of both, but PK's essence is essentially hidden to non-existence at this point from the Void within. (more below)
2. the moment with HK- this scene is the memory of PK speaking to HK. this has nothing to do with The Knight.
people like to say that because HK looked back at his Birthing Place before leaving the Abyss with PK, that he was specifically looking at The Knight.
i don't believe this to be the case, he's just looking back at the only place he's ever known.
you were not hanging on the cliff during this scene when it played out in real time. you are just observing the memory from here.
****
now PK, being the ultimate being of "Foresight", knew he would lose his memory and essentially all of his being, when he rebirthed into a Vessel of Void.
the Void not only clouds his essence from everyone around you early off, his essence is clouded from himself.
in early gameplay, you can almost say that PK doesn't exist. or at least, there is a possibility that he would never exist outside of the cage of Void he birthed into.
this is why we can make choices that don't fully follow the plan PK left for himself.
we can beat this game as The Knight or as PK. it is more pending if we take the path to "awaken".
after "the moment" between HK and PK. everything changed. these were no longer "Vessels". they were his "children".
with HK now acting as a Seal, even though known to be a faulty Seal thanks to PK's last moment intervention... PK had ample time to ready another Vessel.
....but he disappeared.
so... if you were just sacrificing your children... had a sudden change of heart that you loved those children... what is the plan now?
it's not to use more children. it's to save the children you have already wronged.
it's a huge gamble. not only do you lose your kingdom, you lose yourself. you must pray that you have lined up enough breadcrumbs in secrecy, to awaken your soul from nothingness of the Void.
if everything goes right. when we...
...all of our children are saved from the nightmare.
it is the fruition of ultimate sacrifice and foresight.
edit: i'm also going to add that, when we whack the PK off the throne. i believe it's signifying that it has always been your throne. you are taking it back.
...from yourself
that's part of the vibe for it being so meaningless. it's already "your" throne. it matters so little, that there isn't a sound cue or music. it is purely a "personal" event to happen.
it's odd to have an event like that feel melancholy and useless. but again, i think that's the point.
however, the Shade theme plays from the music box in the Queen's room.
this hints at why the White Lady left the palace. (not much of a mystery tbh)
regret for her role in her children's future.
another event that may have helped sway the PK's sudden change of heart.
edit: i shouldn't say helped sway the "change of heart". i think he already had the change at this point with "the moment".
it would be better said as: she may have helped motivate the PK to start thinking of plan B.
do you know what song plays?
let's get the rough and tough out of the way and start with what i disagree with.
1. during the cut-scene after obtaining the Void Heart. i believe it's theatrical coincidence that HK is looking towards TK. as said above, i believe he's just looking back at his birthplace in memory. The Knight just happens to be a phantom in that direction. who is largely hidden as he hangs from the side of the platform. "most" games would considered that hidden but, this is just my opinion of it. you only see this part of "memory" as it's the PK's memory.
***2. after beating Pantheon of the Knight, the final boss is PV.***
i want to say right now. this is the best evidence someone has brought to me EVER to counter my arguments. 100% serious.
HOWEVA... i don't believe this to be a memory. consider this, if this is showing a true vision of TK and HK within the "Abyss"... what is Radiance's Light doing there?
so what does this show? a premonition? a wish?
note that when in Godhome, more specifically battling PV here, that you fight gods not only at their best, but to their best potential.
PV is HK. HK cannot be PV. he has already been tainted.
keeping potential in mind. when you fight HK in the overworld, he fights himself. he never wanted the position he has. perhaps to HK, his potential was not as a warrior.
maybe his dream potential, that wish(?), was just to be a brother while dad took care of that Light up above.
there are a few other theories i could come up with about this, but obviously none of this is solid proof.
you still could be 100% correct in your og statement but, the circumstances surrounding it, does not make this a very black and white subject.
***i can also try to argue it being a premonition of a union between TK, HK, Void to battle the Radiance in the next Pantheon. Shade Lord.
still, one of the best arguments and i'll spend time contemplating this.
3. you thought i was done lol..
Void Heart being similar to Nightmare Heart. i'm somewhat quick to dismiss this, the Abyss Creature is the pretty obvious opposing double to the Nightmare Heart.
still, you have intrigued me with this thought. i have a belief that not all items are "actually" items. instead, significations of something.
that said, even though the Void Heart doesn't have the same outward functionality as the other 2. there are actually links i could make.
although this is not my favorite theory, there is a possibility that "ANY" Vessel could have the PK's memory implanted in him. self-sacrifice to create a lingering memory in hopes that memory is enough to bring PK back.
the Void Heart would essentially act the same way as the Nightmare Heart in such a case. sacrifice, Vessel, rebirth.
although possible, this is not my favorite theory for a number of reasons. 2 big reasons.
i believe it's controversial to state TK doesn't have "will". he does not interact like a normal "Vessel". and... if TK was just a Vessel, he would basically stop existing as TK after getting the Void Heart, perhaps even with the King's fragment. things snowball to become meaningless from here when you think about it.
sorry that's so much to read but, they were good things to bring up.
i believe the conclusion to MatPat's theory is correct. however, his video is a blight to the theory and mossbag dismantled a lot of his arguments. though i don't believe mossbag was fully correct either.
i should edit that i'm talking specifically about the TK = PK theory.
most of what is written about Nightmare Heart and Abyss Creature i don't believe to be theory. some of it is though
1 i was not meaning to imply the clip scene at the end of pantheon of the knight was a direct memory, more of just a thing showing that the vessels are different from the Shade lord in ways, but most of them are caught in the cross fire between the radiance and the Shade Lord.
2. Yes, i too have a entire thesis, gosh i love nerd fights.
when the knight grabs the ledge in the abyss climb, i agree with you that at first the HK is just looking back at his birthplace, however (its hard to tell with no pupils) i do truly think they make eye contact, the when TK falls, he is filled with determination to climb back up to his brother (i know they are gender-less, but to me they are both obviously boys) then the knight leaves hollownest and forgets everything to purify himself, (i also think the knight is the reincarnation of PK, its just also difficult to fully understand since there is at least 2 times we know of where the knight and PK exist at the same time separately these being the abyss climb where the king walks away as the knight just barely grab the ledge, and at the end of path of pain where we see the king alive, well the knight has probably already left the kingdom, eager to see your thoughts on this.) also i like to say this about the void heart,The knight does have a will, and it is to replace the HK nothing more and nothing less, and we can only fight the radiance upon gaining the void heart, which i believe is just the Shade Lords consciousness. here is my evidence: the PV trained from birth to fight the radiance in his mind, upon being sealed, he probably fought the radiance in his own mind, and lost, (because the radiance found a memory of him sharing a loving moment with his dad) The HK had years of training and lost to an ounce of the radiance power (i say ounce because of absolute radiance) However The knight with ZERO training at all, fought the radiance and WON. How you ask? because we have the void heart, the knight isn't even supposed to want to fight the radiance, he only wants to seal her within himself. however, after receiving the void heart we UNIFY our selves with the Shade Lord. the Shade lord, who has centuries of battle experience and IQ. the Shade Lord who DESPISES the radiance with every ounce of his being. That's how we can fight the radiance with no training, because at that point, its not the knight anymore, its not PK either, remember his plan was to seal her as well, After obtaining the void heart, i truly believe the consciousness of the LORD OF SHADES is the one in control sure the knight is still partially there, but the void is the one truly in control. Need more proof? May i present to you the God seeker ending, your telling me the knights only goal is to seal the radiance within himself, but it goes through the pain of each pantheon, finds a place almost as far away as possible from the black egg? No, i believe that shade lord is actually one of the Gods, the strongest God from the land of storms. The land of storms is where the god seekers are originally from, however its never said their old gods die, The shade lord left, started the ancient civilization, then the radiance came and messed with him while he was hibernating or whatever he wakes and BOOM! his religion is dead, his kingdom gone, so he goes back to sleep. this is why the god seeker is truly in awe at the end of p5, she found one of her old Gods, the Freaking God of Gods!!Think about it, the pale king wanted to be worshiped, the tablet hidden beyond his throne room says "minds expanded Blah blah blah, TO DEVOTE" so why did he lock the God seeker up? the god seekers follow gods, the PK was god. because he knew of the Shade lords past, heck he was bound to know something about after using it for so long. he didn't want that old God of Gods To come back and kill him, so he locked everything about it behind bars, that's why all the Kings molds in the throne room are all messed up. the shade lord formed out of the void in them and killed the PK, another usurper God. Then he uses the knights Body as a vessel, going out of his way, Slaying every God in Hollownest, via the pantheons, Then Finally, At Pantheons Peak, in front of his old people, in all of his glory, exacts his vengeance on the absolute radiance, the knight was never supposed to do any of this, he isn't capable of fighting the radiance at full strength, but the Shade Lord can and will. He summons all of his will and strength and returns him self to his former God of Gods status.and he slices his enemy to RIBBONS, erasing her from his kingdom. that's why there is a clip scene next, it signifies, That WE the knight, (that's why he has no gender, so all players can relate to him) Are no longer in control, The Shade Lord is Back, and he is not messing around, so he takes hold of the God seeker, rips his way back into realty, all False Gods purged from his land, and he is taking back his throne. That is the glory of this game, it isn't even about us.