Carefree Melody or Grimmchild for Pantheon?

[Naophae]

Hello :)

I'm trying to decide what to do re: Grimm Troupe's ending. Half the players I speak with tell me to go with NKG for the charm, and the other half tells me to go with the banishment route because that charm would be better specifically because it helps with Pantheon fights.

Since this is my first playthrough, I've never tried either charm, so would a few kind souls be able to tell me whether Carefree Melody would indeed be better for when I get to tackle the Pantheon?

A few things to consider:
* I'm aiming for 112% on this specific save, not on others
* I've already upgraded the 3 fragile charms
* I probably won't use either charm otherwise, the only content I've got left apart from Godmaster is Coliseum 3, Path of Pain and White Defender 2-5 (I guess). (Yes, I left Zote to die because I forgot about him...)
* I don't want to fiddle with save files. Anyway I'll do a second playthrough for achievements/content I won't get in this first playthrough, so I won't "miss" on one ending.
* I don't care about "but this is cheesy / too easy" (if the charm indeed makes Pantheon a little less hard). HK is my first metroidvania, and the first platformer I play in 25 years, so I think I've paid my dues already in terms of challenge, difficulty and trying hard. :P I just want a chance to achieve 112% , and my skill is limited enough as it is due to arthritis in my fingers :( #TeamOldFarts

In other words, considering the above, should I go with banishment or not?

Thanks in advance !

[kanna]

Both charms are not particularly useful imo, but Carefree Melody could be helpful for Hall of Gods to do Radiant versions of the bosses, since it has a chance to let you get away with getting hit when you otherwise can't get hit once. Others might see it differently but I wouldn't use CM in pantheons at all though. You can heal in those, and the reward you can get from doing bindings on the pantheons 1-4 (individually is fine; you don't have to do them all at once) is a much better help imo.

The safest strategy I've found to get through any boss fight is to do *maximum damage* as *quickly* as possible while also avoiding damage to the best of your ability (in most cases that means knowing when and how best to use your spells but this varies by boss).

Unless you're a minion build specialist or something, Grimmchild isn't particularly useful and Carefree Melody only works something like 1/3 of the time. I'd go for more soul or more damage personally.

Do whichever ending is sounds most interesting to you, but I would choose Ritual for the very first time ending the Grimm Troupe storyline, and then Banishment the second.

Ritual is more satisfying and a much more interesting introduction to a certain fight you'll see either way in Godhome. It'll be spoiled for you if you do Banishment and then see that fight for the first time in the Hall of Gods with no build up whatsoever. And just in case you weren't aware: if you choose Banishment you could lose the chance to upgrade your Fragile charms, so make sure you've done that first!

[Szaal]

Melody is "i-frame" chance which, while sounds awesome, ultimately you need to be on a state you don't want to be for it to happen in the first place: getting hit.
My personal core-charm combo is quickslash and either of longnail/pride. That leaves you 5/4 more notches where you can fit more spell power or survivability. I'd rather pick quick focus rather than melody.
Naturally, you can fit any charms that combo with your playstyle. I'm just not a fan of RNG involved in a game like this. Sure, the homing sun attacks are rng af, but I prefer a charm that helps me directly with the fight than a charm than randomly negates a damage when an attack hits me.

[Szaal]

Also, agree that either charms are not particulary amazing on Pantheon. Grimmchild can have niche use on some fights (anti-hornet traps), but otherwise, it's replacable.

[Naophae]

Thanks for your answers!

So it boils down to "better focus on high DPS and dodging instead", regardless of which charm I get, eh? ^^

@kanna — I forgot to mention it, but I already have all 3 upgraded unbreakable charms, so I'm safe here. (I die so often that as soon as I had enough geos for one charm, I'd throw them at Divine XD )

I haven't relied on minion builds up to this point, I tend to go with higher/faster DPS or SOUL-focused builds, with the White Palace exception (Hive charm and all). If there's one thing I learned from HK, it's that for 90% boss fights, relying on healing isn't good, I'd better learn to dodge and deal as much damage as possible. Not that I'm necessarily great at it, but I'm working on it.

@Szaal — My understanding is that P5 is basically one hit = insta-kill, correct? And relying on the RNG from CM is a bet more than anything else, then?

(Now I tend to keep Quickslash and Longnail/Pride as a core as well, sometimes with Sharp Shadow depending on the boss fight. I guess that's not a bad start for Pantheon, then.)

[Kagora]

Originally posted by Naophae:

I forgot to mention it, but I already have all 3 upgraded unbreakable charms, so I'm safe here. (I die so often that as soon as I had enough geos for one charm, I'd throw them at Divine XD )

Godhome is located in the Godseeker's dream, so any deaths are not real deaths, therefor breakable charms breaking/loosing a steel soul file/geo loss can not happen in godhome

Originally posted by Naophae:

My understanding is that P5 is basically one hit = insta-kill, correct? And relying on the RNG from CM is a bet more than anything else, then?

No, P5 is just a boss rush of every boss in the game they have the same health and deal the same damage as all other pantheons, the only time one hit = instant death is when fighting a boss on radiant difficulty in the hall of gods and some specific overcharm situations that are also in dream fights

Originally posted by Naophae:

(Now I tend to keep Quickslash and Longnail/Pride as a core as well, sometimes with Sharp Shadow depending on the boss fight. I guess that's not a bad start for Pantheon, then.)

That's a decent setup, however i would recommend dropping sharp shadow before it becomes too hard to play with out it (had to learn that the hard way) and use shaman stone, it will increase damage from spells significantly and more importantly the hit box of Shade soul, making it much easier (sometimes making it actually possible) to double hit targets with the increased damage

[kanna]

Originally posted by Inhumane Minimalism:

That's a decent setup, however i would recommend dropping sharp shadow before it becomes too hard to play with out it (had to learn that the hard way) and use shaman stone, it will increase damage from spells significantly and more importantly the hit box of Shade soul, making it much easier (sometimes making it actually possible) to double hit targets with the increased damage

I'll cosign the post, you can HEAL in pantheons, as I said above so no need for Radiant boss strats. I'll also emphasize that Sharp Shadow can be useful at first but it can also get you into trouble especially with the later bosses in P5.

Shaman Stone is amazing for both damage and the larger hitbox it gives spells. Most of the time they are your best damage source so I recommend learning to use them properly.

Shade Soul: High chance of multi-hit, especially with enemies moving away from you and lighter enemies that get knocked back
Descending Dark: damage + i-frames (wait a sec and combine with Shadow Dash for longer i-frames)
Abyss Shriek: up spell does excellent damage on enemies that are taller standing next to you or enemies that are above you, but the trade off is it takes a bit longer to cast so it can be risky.

I suggest checking speedrunners' videos for ideas when best to use spells.

[Naophae]

Originally posted by Inhumane Minimalism:

Godhome is located in the Godseeker's dream, so any deaths are not real deaths, therefor breakable charms breaking/loosing a steel soul file/geo loss can not happen in godhome

I think they meant that after that, the troupe is gone so you can't upgrade the charms anymore (for other uses than Pantheon)? But indeed, as far as I understand, it's a "dream realm" (entered with the Dream Nail) so it stands to logic to have it behave like boss fights in dreams etc.

Originally posted by Inhumane Minimalism:

No, P5 is just a boss rush of every boss in the game they have the same health and deal the same damage as all other pantheons, the only time one hit = instant death is when fighting a boss on radiant difficulty in the hall of gods and some specific overcharm situations that are also in dream fights

Ohh OK! I think I misunderstood the radiant difficulty for average P5 difficulty XD
I've only tried a little bit of the first Pantheon, and didn't go far.

Originally posted by Inhumane Minimalism:

That's a decent setup, however i would recommend dropping sharp shadow before it becomes too hard to play with out it (had to learn that the hard way) and use shaman stone, it will increase damage from spells significantly and more importantly the hit box of Shade soul, making it much easier (sometimes making it actually possible) to double hit targets with the increased damage

I drop it most of the time, especially after certain bad experiences in the Queen's Gardens (I'm very, very glad I didn't use it in the White Palace!). It is sweet for specific bosses, but for Pantheon I'm not that sure either.

[Kagora]

Originally posted by Naophae:

I think they meant that after that, the troupe is gone so you can't upgrade the charms anymore

Divine will stay after you complete the ritual until you upgrade the charms and interact with another NPC
and other than using carefree melody for modded bosses, there's no reasons to banish the troupe other than the achievement but that's better to do on a save file you don't care about full completion on, as you can not get NKG into your hunter's journal (doesn't block the achievement, just really annoying seeing your journal 1 short if you're a completionist)

[kanna]

Originally posted by Inhumane Minimalism:

Originally posted by Naophae:

I think they meant that after that, the troupe is gone so you can't upgrade the charms anymore

Divine will stay after you complete the ritual until you upgrade the charms and interact with another NPC
and other than using carefree melody for modded bosses, there's no reasons to banish the troupe other than the achievement but that's better to do on a save file you don't care about full completion on, as you can not get NKG into your hunter's journal (doesn't block the achievement, just really annoying seeing your journal 1 short if you're a completionist)

She stays if you do Ritual, yes, but not if you do Banishment.

Originally posted by Naophae:

Originally posted by Inhumane Minimalism:

Godhome is located in the Godseeker's dream, so any deaths are not real deaths, therefor breakable charms breaking/loosing a steel soul file/geo loss can not happen in godhome

I think they meant that after that, the troupe is gone so you can't upgrade the charms anymore (for other uses than Pantheon)? But indeed, as far as I understand, it's a "dream realm" (entered with the Dream Nail) so it stands to logic to have it behave like boss fights in dreams etc.

Yes, this is what I meant. If you're done everything else it mostly doesn't matter, but it's worth knowing just in case.

[Naophae]

OK so this is pretty much a case of "do I want to suffer more fighting NKG or not" (I guess if I didn't want to suffer, I wouldn't be playing HK though, right). :D

[kanna]

Originally posted by Naophae:

OK so this is pretty much a case of "do I want to suffer more fighting NKG or not" (I guess if I didn't want to suffer, I wouldn't be playing HK though, right). :D

Yes, pretty much. :')

But again, if you're at all interested in experiencing the fight the way it was first intended, the way to do it is via completing the Ritual. Godhome is just the fight (and the music), no atmospheric build up. Once you can beat slightly higher HP version in his original location, then you'll have gotten good experience for the slightly lower HP version in Godhome. (Kind of like practising Hall of Gods bosses in Hall of Gods on Ascended before doing P5.)

But be warned, you will NOT beat NKG your first time (or your second time most likely) unless you've spoiled yourself and memorized patterns from watching other people do the fight or something. When practising, you'll probably want frequent breaks for your hands too, because it's a very fast fight.

[Naophae]

Ahahaha, no worries, there's no chance of my beating a boss on my first attempt in HK. Took me 20 or so attempts or so for Troupe Master Grimm, I don't expect less for the other version. The "easiest" boss for me was Dung Defender—I only died once. That says it all.

Now to decide whether I do want a "full" Hunter's journal, though. Because my current game doesn't have Zote, so if I do NKG in it, it means I have to do banishment in my second game, andI also won't have a full journal there. Gah. Conundrums.

[kanna]

Originally posted by Naophae:

Ahahaha, no worries, there's no chance of my beating a boss on my first attempt in HK. Took me 20 or so attempts or so for Troupe Master Grimm, I don't expect less for the other version. The "easiest" boss for me was Dung Defender—I only died once. That says it all.

Now to decide whether I do want a "full" Hunter's journal, though. Because my current game doesn't have Zote, so if I do NKG in it, it means I have to do banishment in my second game, andI also won't have a full journal there. Gah. Conundrums.

Zote doesn't count for journal completion. There are a number of entries that don't, actually.

Have you tried rezno[R]'s Save Completion Analyzer Web Tool? It was created by a very helpful user on here (the Hunter's Journal section also links to the wiki page indicating what journal entries count to completion if you just want that):
https://reznormichael.github.io/hollow-knight-completion-check/

About bosses, I was almost the same on my first playthrough. There were only a handful I beat my first time, many took a *lot* of tries, and there are 47 bosses in this game. xD

Interestingly I did beat *one* of the unique fights in Godhome on my first try though. That was kinda neat.

[Naophae]

Ohhh thank you for the tool! Now I know for sure I'm only missing a few Maskflies and God Tamer.
(But it'd still be sweet to have EVERYTHING/ONE in the journal XD )

[Maaax]

Melody is a bit more useful than the little grimm dude, but you definitely dont wanna miss the epic dreamgrimm boss fight. I suggest going for grimmchild.