Lore Theory: The Pale King didn't build Hallownest

[Morgan Terra]

(moved from general because of spoilers)

At least, not all of it. Here's my idea, broken up into several points:

1 - The elevators and their shafts depict a form of hallownest seal with only 3 spikes, as is present on the radiance. Additionally, it has wings, which seem to have no connection to the pale king at all. Some variants of the seal also depict a spike-like shape at the bottom, as if depicting the radiance's legs. This suggests to me that the seals were originally designed by the radiance, rather than the pale king. The pale king merely replaced the 3 spikes with 4 once he took over, much like roman statues had their heads replaced whenever there was a new emperor.

2 - The pale king seems to have a habit of twisting the truth, bringing the idea that he built it into question. I have long believed that his claim that there is no mind outside hallownest to be false; merely a method of controlling his populace and elevating the status of both him and his kingdom. Silksong seems to confirm other kingdoms do exist, at least, but even without Silksong, there is this very important clue: There are frequent mentions of bugs making the *decision* to come from far and wide to witness to wonders of hallownest. There was also trade. With what, and from where? This isn't possible unless the pale king was lying.
There is also the matter of him depicting himself as grander that he really was, which supports this personality trait.
Thirdly, i have the Wanderer's Journal, which outlines the hallownest creation myth, which appears similarly in-game: It states that the Wyrm dug through the mountains and crossed the wastelands, stopping at the soil that would become hallownest. This is spoken by a character reciting established in-universe legend, which says to me that this could quite easily be a myth established by the pale king himself, inflating his own accomplishments. The narrator in that book is also proven to be unreliable on one other account; just watch Mossbag's video on the Wander's Journal for more on that, which is a good viewing anyway.

3 - I do believe he built some parts of hallownest. The tramway is definitely one of them, since the failed tramway indicates it is of recent construction. I simply don't think he guided the construction of all hallownest.

Really, my only supporting 'evidence' for this is the seal, but it is an interesting idea, and i certainly think it is plausible. What do you think?

EDIT:
4 - I should clarify that what i'm suggesting is this: The Pale king took over the Radiance's city by freeing the minds of those bugs from her control.

[Szaal]

Pale King is definitely not the first to "build a civilization" in Hallownest. Even Leem (or was it in-game description?) mentioned that the Ancient Egg exists before the kingdom stands or even the Radiance herself. Can't quite recall.

[Morgan Terra]

Originally posted by Szaal:

Pale King is definitely not the first to "build a civilization" in Hallownest. Even Leem (or was it in-game description?) mentioned that the Ancient Egg exists before the kingdom stands or even the Radiance herself. Can't quite recall.

Oh yes, i'm aware of that. What i'm saying though is that the pale king didn't build upon older ruins, but rather took over an existing kingdom by freeing the minds of the bugs from the control of the radiance. I should have stated that in my first post.

As an interesting sidenote though, he *did* build upon older ruins as well. The Wanderer's Journal states that the lighthouse was built upon an already existing structure.

[kanna]

Doesn't the Seer straight up explain that the Radiance had her own order to things before the PK showed up? I think Radiance was likely a benevolent dictator, or the moths wouldn't have remembered so fondly as they seemed to... although I suppose it's equally possible they did so out of fear. Then when PK made everyone forget her, she lost it and could only think of getting revenge. I always figured the king just had his wings hidden like our Knight does, but that he and the Queen both could fly (...a novel thing for a root to be able to do).

[Morgan Terra]

Originally posted by kanna:

Doesn't the Seer straight up explain that the Radiance had her own order to things before the PK showed up? I think Radiance was likely a benevolent dictator, or the moths wouldn't have remembered so fondly as they seemed to... although I suppose it's equally possible they did so out of fear. Then when PK made everyone forget her, she lost it and could only think of getting revenge. I always figured the king just had his wings hidden like our Knight does, but that he and the Queen both could fly (...a novel thing for a root to be able to do).

Fair points. I don't think the seer outright states hallownest existed before the wyrm showed up, but there was definitely something there. It could be interpreted as supporting this theory at least.

As for the wings, the artstyle does make a habit of omitting certain physical features, true. Like Grimm's mouth, for example. It only shows up when he sceams.

[kanna]

When I first saw this thread, I didn't want to accept the concept either, but upon further thought, it's not only a perfectly valid theory, but a good explanation for why some of the "Hallownest seals" you see in the game have three spikes on top, and why the wings are so prominent (though again, I do think the king probably had wings). I can't remember how the Seer puts it exactly, but I thought for a long time there were other characters (or writings) in the game that stated some kind of society existed in what is known now as Hallownest, before the PK showed up. I didn't think the structures might have been related to Radiance before, but why not? He didn't have to necessarily have his followers build everything from scratch.

I wonder if it also explains something that's always bothered me - why do the Resting Grounds have a monument to someone like Xero, who rebelled against the *king*, but then there are also graves with Hallownest Seals right next to his that are far less prominent. (I should check if those are the ones with 3 or with 4 spikes.) I would have thought they'd at least have different sections of the graveyard to let the moths remember their more "traitorous" dead. :')

[Morgan Terra]

Originally posted by kanna:

When I first saw this thread, I didn't want to accept the concept either, but upon further thought, it's not only a perfectly valid theory, but a good explanation for why some of the "Hallownest seals" you see in the game have three spikes on top, and why the wings are so prominent (though again, I do think the king probably had wings). I can't remember how the Seer puts it exactly, but I thought for a long time there were other characters (or writings) in the game that stated some kind of society existed in what is known now as Hallownest, before the PK showed up. I didn't think the structures might have been related to Radiance before, but why not? He didn't have to necessarily have his followers build everything from scratch.

I wonder if it also explains something that's always bothered me - why do the Resting Grounds have a monument to someone like Xero, who rebelled against the *king*, but then there are also graves with Hallownest Seals right next to his that are far less prominent. (I should check if those are the ones with 3 or with 4 spikes.) I would have thought they'd at least have different sections of the graveyard to let the moths remember their more "traitorous" dead. :')

I've been looking through the seer's dialogue on the wiki, and it does state that the moths were put in charge of maintaining the resting grounds, probably by the pale king. It's reasonable to think they may have snuck in a few graves that wouldn't have been approved by the king. That said though, Xero's grave is pretty prominent. Maybe he got placed there as an example and warning? His epitath does seem to suggest as much. It's also possible that the king he betrayed wasn't the pale king, but perhaps someone from before the radiance, but that seems like a bit of a stretch.

As for the rest of what the seer says, i did find some clues regarding earlier civilisations:
1: "As history goes on I grow numb to its repetitions."
2: "The folk of my tribe were born from a light. Light similar to Essence, similar to that powerful blade, though much brighter still.
They were content to bask in that light and honoured it... for a time.
But another light appeared in our world... A wyrm that took the form of a king.
How fickle my ancestors must have been. They forsook the light that spawned them. Turned their backs to it... Forgot it even.
And so this kingdom was born from that betrayal. But the memories of that ancient light still lingered, hush whispers of faith... Until all of Hallownest began to dream of that forgotten light."

The second qoute seems to be partially in support of my theory, and partially against it. It all depends on how you interpret 'kingdom'. Does it just refer to the nation, it's system of governance, or the actual city of hallownest? What exactly Hallownest is, is also debatable. Is it the city, the region, or the nation? I think it's all very open to interpretation, and easy to twist in favor of a particular theory.

[Morgan Terra]

Interesting to note: I've been paying attention to the hallownest seals now wherever i find them, and the ones in the graveyard have 4 spikes. The one in Dirthmouth's station, however, has only 3. That strikes me as extremely odd, since i reckoned the stations to be fairly recent. I guess not?

[Szaal]

I did a reread and wanted to write this.
Have you fought Radiance and clear the 3rd ending? I think it became quite clear after that that PK does indeed grapple the domain out of Radiance's hand, locking her inside double triple security Void vault Black Egg.

On the number of head spikes, I think the triple spikes with wings denote PK earlier form: the Wyrm. Can't recall how it was described, but it was big (and flying?). This form is at Kingdom's Edge and might have 4 spikes on its head. PK then reincarnates into tinier body and wears the crown thing with 4 spikes. Radiance's spikes look more arrow-shaped than the ones in Hallownest Seals, I think.

[kanna]

Originally posted by Morgan Terra:

Interesting to note: I've been paying attention to the hallownest seals now wherever i find them, and the ones in the graveyard have 4 spikes. The one in Dirthmouth's station, however, has only 3. That strikes me as extremely odd, since i reckoned the stations to be fairly recent. I guess not?

All of the Stagway stations are implied to be very old, or so it seems to me what with the way The Old Stag talks about them. Elderbug isn't as old as the game first makes it seem, but I seem to recall something about him not ever seeing them in operation? Someone can correct me if I'm wrong here.

I'm never sure whether to take what the bugs of each sub-society believed was literal truth. If their belief in gods is true, then Greenpath's bugs were dreamed into existence by Unn, the moths were dreamed into existence by the Radiance, and the PK "created" the bugs of Hallownest (probably the one I have the most trouble believing, considering that as Szaal also mentioned, there are clear in-game indications that societies lived there before PK came along).

Regarding what Hallownest is, I take it that every area in the game is (for better or worse) part of the kingdom of Hallownest, in theory. It's implied the outer regions (as well as the centre) were colonized and taken over.

The City of Tears probably had a proper name once, but who knows what that was now. The palace is in the ancient basin, but the Queen has her own Gardens elsewhere. Deep Nest had a Hallownest tramway being built (though that failed). Fungal Wastes, Mantis Village, and the Hive all have in-game lore about a deal with the PK.

Originally posted by Szaal:

On the number of head spikes, I think the triple spikes with wings denote PK earlier form: the Wyrm. Can't recall how it was described, but it was big (and flying?). This form is at Kingdom's Edge and might have 4 spikes on its head. PK then reincarnates into tinier body and wears the crown thing with 4 spikes. Radiance's spikes look more arrow-shaped than the ones in Hallownest Seals, I think.

Yes, if you manage to dreamnail Radiance, she can even say "Ancient Enemy," in reference to the void beings. I've always assumed one of the repetitions the Seer mentioned is the overthrowing of established societies. First that we know of is the void beings, then light beings (Radiance), then PK's "Hallownest."

I think the orientation/angle of the spikes matters more than their precise shape, considering the earlier sculpting may have been either more crude or simply of a different style. PK also has more than 4 spikes (they go all the way around his head - both on the original Wyrm in Kingdom's Edge, and the "reborn" form the people know), but all the artwork about him only bothers to display 4.

To me, as someone who loves delving into the lore of this game, this theory is totally valid but equally impossible to prove or disprove, just like many other theories that I've seen come up.

[Morgan Terra]

Originally posted by kanna:

To me, as someone who loves delving into the lore of this game, this theory is totally valid but equally impossible to prove or disprove, just like many other theories that I've seen come up.

Pretty much this. There just isn't enough information, and i'm not expecting Silksong to tell us anything more.

[Morgan Terra]

Originally posted by Szaal:

I did a reread and wanted to write this.
Have you fought Radiance and clear the 3rd ending? I think it became quite clear after that that PK does indeed grapple the domain out of Radiance's hand, locking her inside double triple security Void vault Black Egg.

On the number of head spikes, I think the triple spikes with wings denote PK earlier form: the Wyrm. Can't recall how it was described, but it was big (and flying?). This form is at Kingdom's Edge and might have 4 spikes on its head. PK then reincarnates into tinier body and wears the crown thing with 4 spikes. Radiance's spikes look more arrow-shaped than the ones in Hallownest Seals, I think.

I you're referring to the 'ancient enemy' dreamnail dialogue, it could just mean that the void was enemies with the radiance before the PK showed up, and the PK simply saw an oppurtunity to use that to his advantage.

[kanna]

Believe it or not, I was watching a steam yesterday and I saw something interesting that I almost missed in Kingdom's Edge. You know the bench near the Hornet 2 fight? Go down from there and to the left a little bit (where the Primal Aspids start appearing), and there are Hallownest Seals with 4 spikes but NO wings at all. Makes me start to think I might be wrong about the king having wings, lol. Maybe it was just the Queen? I was sure the monarch wings have to be from someone other than Radiance because they're not shaped like hers or feathered like hers. Seems rather a stretch that the wings would have been manipulated to look different, but it's just as weird that the Queen was a root who could teach Marmu to fly. Makes the most sense that they just don't come from Radiance, but the rest of it I don't know about.

*edit* Forgot to say it could be the carcass of the Wyrm wasn't winged but the re-born form that became PK had wings, and maybe those signposts are adapted for local worship.

[Morgan Terra]

Originally posted by kanna:

Believe it or not, I was watching a steam yesterday and I saw something interesting that I almost missed in Kingdom's Edge. You know the bench near the Hornet 2 fight? Go down from there and to the left a little bit (where the Primal Aspids start appearing), and there are Hallownest Seals with 4 spikes but NO wings at all. Makes me start to think I might be wrong about the king having wings, lol. Maybe it was just the Queen? I was sure the monarch wings have to be from someone other than Radiance because they're not shaped like hers or feathered like hers. Seems rather a stretch that the wings would have been manipulated to look different, but it's just as weird that the Queen was a root who could teach Marmu to fly. Makes the most sense that they just don't come from Radiance, but the rest of it I don't know about.

*edit* Forgot to say it could be the carcass of the Wyrm wasn't winged but the re-born form that became PK had wings, and maybe those signposts are adapted for local worship.

It's possible that the wingless seals predate the time when the PK took over hallownest, since he arrived on that side. Once he got to hallownest he just modified the Radiance seals there into his own version, adding the wings. The seals on the opposite side do have wings, since those were added afterwards (though now i say that i'm kind of curious to check if that's really the case).

The monarch wings are a good point though. They can't be from the radiance in general, i think; it makes no sense for her to leave them there. Maybe the PK got his wings from the same shrine you get them from? That would certainly explain why you can't see them on the PK; they just pop into existence when he needs them.

I do like the local worship angle. It makes sense, though i wouldn't know who the worshippers are.

[kanna]

Originally posted by Morgan Terra:

I do like the local worship angle. It makes sense, though i wouldn't know who the worshippers are.

Most of the enemies we fight in the game were once citizens of Hallownest, right? I think City, Queen's Gardens (before the traitor mantises showed up), Basin, and Kingdom's Edge bugs were probably all wholehearted PK worshippers before the infection. (The bugs of Greenpath, Fungal, Hive, and Deep Nest just made deals with and/or tolerated Hallownest and the PK though, to different degrees.) So besides everything in City (aside from the Soul Master/Tyrant who was clearly not a fan of the king, lol), past worshippers would include those same annoying Primal Aspids in that area, I was thinking, among others. :P

*edit* I forgot to mention Fog Canyon. I doubt Monomon and her jellyfish people worshipped PK but I'm sure they supported him at least. (Crystal Peak I'm not sure about at all. I don't know if anyone lived there that would have worshipped PK, except *maaybe* at "Hallownest's Crown," but this was clearly an abandoned moth village. The moths are said to have turned their backs on the Radiance after all. Did anyone even live there during PK's time, though? It was likely renamed from some previous name under the Radiance, what with the statue and all.)