This games mechanics and power scaling

[thorin.hannahs]

Feel really really good once you know whats what. I have around 400 hours in and I just managed to do what I think is a complete 1st run of Crossroads. I didn't get one of the charms and obviously no way through the elevator but I grabbed everything else before heading into Greenpath. Does anyone have any insight on why the power scaling feels good? (I have my own opinions of course) Does it feel good for you guys?

[Noborus]

1st run of crossroads? Power scaling? You mean how after you play through the game a few times you're able to complete the content you had trouble with before? I guess that's a normal feeling, though i don't quite understand what your asking.

[thorin.hannahs]

Originally posted by Coco:

1st run of crossroads? Power scaling? You mean how after you play through the game a few times you're able to complete the content you had trouble with before? I guess that's a normal feeling, though i don't quite understand what your asking.

I mean how, charms, notches, spells and nail upgrades work in tandem to create what I consider to be very good power scaling. Not just how the "grind" of the game makes you better overall and need less and less in terms of upgrades.

An example is how geo collection, exploration, charms and notches with some pale ore lead to a massive power spike before even beating Soul Master.

[Noborus]

Originally posted by thorin.hannahs:

Originally posted by Coco:

1st run of crossroads? Power scaling? You mean how after you play through the game a few times you're able to complete the content you had trouble with before? I guess that's a normal feeling, though i don't quite understand what your asking.

I mean how, charms, notches, spells and nail upgrades work in tandem to create what I consider to be very good power scaling. Not just how the "grind" of the game makes you better overall and need less and less in terms of upgrades.

An example is how geo collection, exploration, charms and notches with some pale ore lead to a massive power spike before even beating Soul Master.

Oh, that's what you were talking about. I don't think this game has that good of a power scaling during your first playthrough cause players usually find out about bosses like Mawlek and nosk when they have better abilities. i can agree with what you're saying after you already beat the game cause you won't be trying to get all the upgrades before fighting every boss since that usually ruins the fun. Team Cherry didn't make an intended path, there's no objective so in some cases you'll come across a boss that was supposed to be fought early on. Most players don't focus on bosses, but rather exploring and getting better abilities so when they finally face them the fight is over in a second.

[Boksha]

The game does do a pretty good job at allowing players to choose between rushing forward for hard (but nowhere near impossible) boss battles or carefully stocking up for much easier boss fights. I feel this is a pretty basic and essential thing for Metroidvanias to do though.

[thorin.hannahs]

Originally posted by Coco:

Originally posted by thorin.hannahs:

I mean how, charms, notches, spells and nail upgrades work in tandem to create what I consider to be very good power scaling. Not just how the "grind" of the game makes you better overall and need less and less in terms of upgrades.

An example is how geo collection, exploration, charms and notches with some pale ore lead to a massive power spike before even beating Soul Master.

Oh, that's what you were talking about. I don't think this game has that good of a power scaling during your first playthrough cause players usually find out about bosses like Mawlek and nosk when they have better abilities. i can agree with what you're saying after you already beat the game cause you won't be trying to get all the upgrades before fighting every boss since that usually ruins the fun. Team Cherry didn't make an intended path, there's no objective so in some cases you'll come across a boss that was supposed to be fought early on. Most players don't focus on bosses, but rather exploring and getting better abilities so when they finally face them the fight is over in a second.

So would you say that the games power scaling works, doesn't work, feels good? etc. I am not a newer player clearly. I just want opinions of other players (all calibers) take on how power scaling feels and works. Same with mechanics and how they can provide power scaling. An example would be slashing and the cooldown built into it. That leads many players to really appreciate quick slash since it is a DPS boost by reducing the cooldown but before then the DPS boost comes from at least for me slash cancel slash cooldown with spell. I feel it is similar to a fighting game mechanic of canceling into specials and was fully intended.

[thorin.hannahs]

Originally posted by Boksha:

The game does do a pretty good job at allowing players to choose between rushing forward for hard (but nowhere near impossible) boss battles or carefully stocking up for much easier boss fights. I feel this is a pretty basic and essential thing for Metroidvanias to do though.

I agree that the choice given to players through multiple paths is key and that the system of power scaling is incredibly fluid regardless of what your approach is.

What is your take on the power scaling and does it feel good or bad?

[Noborus]

Originally posted by thorin.hannahs:

So would you say that the games power scaling works, doesn't work, feels good? etc. I am not a newer player clearly. I just want opinions of other players (all calibers) take on how power scaling feels and works. Same with mechanics and how they can provide power scaling. An example would be slashing and the cooldown built into it. That leads many players to really appreciate quick slash since it is a DPS boost by reducing the cooldown but before then the DPS boost comes from at least for me slash cancel slash cooldown with spell. I feel it is similar to a fighting game mechanic of canceling into specials and was fully intended.

I personally like the power scaling, if you have trouble with a boss you can get more abilities and come back later, but i don't like how in some cases you'll find a boss that was meant to be fought much earlier and you won't be able to experience the full fight because you've already gotten a bunch of upgrades and there's no way to actually fight the boss for real unless you make a new save file.

[🉑 rezno[R].technology]

For me Team Cherry totally nailed it. Playing Hollow Knight for me was much more satisfying than playing any classic-style RPG title or Open World ARPG titles.

Like I mentioned in my review:

✅ An amazing example of game design, that mixes freedom and thrill of exploration with the feeling of getting stronger/better at the game without any XP/levels mechanic. Your skill improves with more time you spend in the game world. Your gameplay time IS your experience. The imaginary "character levels" you gain by just playing the game.

✅ Lots of combinations and experiments with the game mechanics are present in the game and available to the player. Charms can sometimes drastically change the way we play and approach a given challenge. You want to be a Warrior? No problem. You want to be a Sorcerer? No problem. You want to be a Summoner? No problem. You want to be a Ninja Assassin in the shadows? No problem. You want to change your playstyle at any moment without starting a new game? No problem!

✅ Non-linear play-on-your-own-pace progression that may appeal to most players after some time (Boss too hard? Challenge too difficult? Obstacle seems unpassable? Explore other places, return there later after you discovered new things/when you are less emotional/angry/tired etc.)

✅ You need to only defeat ~16% of all bosses to complete the game. Even the first boss in the game is totally optional.

✅ Most things to do are optional and you can always return later (or even not at all)

[thorin.hannahs]

Originally posted by Coco:

Originally posted by thorin.hannahs:

So would you say that the games power scaling works, doesn't work, feels good? etc. I am not a newer player clearly. I just want opinions of other players (all calibers) take on how power scaling feels and works. Same with mechanics and how they can provide power scaling. An example would be slashing and the cooldown built into it. That leads many players to really appreciate quick slash since it is a DPS boost by reducing the cooldown but before then the DPS boost comes from at least for me slash cancel slash cooldown with spell. I feel it is similar to a fighting game mechanic of canceling into specials and was fully intended.

I personally like the power scaling, if you have trouble with a boss you can get more abilities and come back later, but i don't like how in some cases you'll find a boss that was meant to be fought much earlier and you won't be able to experience the full fight because you've already gotten a bunch of upgrades and there's no way to actually fight the boss for real unless you make a new save file.

That sentiment is why Brooding Mawlek is my favorite 1st boss. You won't know about him early on your first playthrough but your 2nd playthrough you know about him and have the mechanics required to get to him. How would you weigh each segment of the power scaling? So something like, nail upgrades, spells, charms, mechanics etc.

[thorin.hannahs]

Originally posted by 🉑 reznoR:

For me Team Cherry totally nailed it. Playing Hollow Knight for me was much more satisfying than playing any classic-style RPG title or Open World ARPG titles.

Like I mentioned in my review:

✅ An amazing example of game design, that mixes freedom and thrill of exploration with the feeling of getting stronger/better at the game without any XP/levels mechanic. Your skill improves with more time you spend in the game world. Your gameplay time IS your experience. The imaginary "character levels" you gain by just playing the game.

✅ Lots of combinations and experiments with the game mechanics are present in the game and available to the player. Charms can sometimes drastically change the way we play and approach a given challenge. You want to be a Warrior? No problem. You want to be a Sorcerer? No problem. You want to be a Summoner? No problem. You want to be a Ninja Assassin in the shadows? No problem. You want to change your playstyle at any moment without starting a new game? No problem!

✅ Non-linear play-on-your-own-pace progression that may appeal to most players after some time (Boss too hard? Challenge too difficult? Obstacle seems unpassable? Explore other places, return there later after you discovered new things/when you are less emotional/angry/tired etc.)

✅ You need to only defeat ~16% of all bosses to complete the game. Even the first boss in the game is totally optional.

✅ Most things to do are optional and you can always return later (or even not at all)

A nice overview, so would you say that the overall system of power scaling is what you enjoy? The fluidity of charms granting power spikes, getting notches leading to more power spikes but needing to find/purchase charms to unlock notches. How spells help with enemy positioning while allowing DPS through spell cancels. Pale ores increasing raw damage etc.

[kanna]

Charms add customizability, and optional power scaling. That is an enjoyable aspect of this game for sure, but since there's no set order to this game (aside from getting the minimum requirements for achieving an ending) and most bosses are optional, so I'm not sure what you mean about boss progression. Do you just mean picking up everything you can get on a casual playthrough, and how casual players aren't likely to end up somewhere they aren't prepared to be?

As Boksha said above, this game does at least as well as any other well-made Metroidvania at ability gating to guide newer players within areas they might want to stay in as they build their skill at the game. But there's plenty of opportunity for route changes and sequence breaks for more experienced players to enjoy as well.

[thorin.hannahs]

Originally posted by kanna:

Charms add customizability, and optional power scaling. That is an enjoyable aspect of this game for sure, but since there's no set order to this game (aside from getting the minimum requirements for achieving an ending) and most bosses are optional, so I'm not sure what you mean about boss progression. Do you just mean picking up everything you can get on a casual playthrough, and how casual players aren't likely to end up somewhere they aren't prepared to be?

As Boksha said above, this game does at least as well as any other well-made Metroidvania at ability gating to guide newer players within areas they might want to stay in as they build their skill at the game. But there's plenty of opportunity for route changes and sequence breaks for more experienced players to enjoy as well.

Alright so if power scaling in this game were broken down to base aspects that everyone has access to but will not get in exactly the same way what would they be?

-Nail damage upgrades
-Nail arts
-Spells
-Spell damage upgrades
-Charms
-Charm notches
-Mask upgrades (maybe)
-Soul Vessel upgrades
-Pogo mechanic knowledge (maybe)
-Cooldown mechanics knowledge (maybe)

Which of these jumps out at you as this one makes me feel the best once achieved? Or given your preferred play style which of these do you prioritize and optimize first? Or given X amount of playthroughs my route always leads me to this branch of power scaling upgrades to be completed first.

My own example would be I play a mix of nail and spell, so my priorities are pale ores and all the spells and their upgrades, I use charms to overclock that play style by increasing nail range and damage and soul generation and spell cost. Somewhere in the gaps between collecting Pale Ores and Spells I uses charm notches as mini-power spikes.

Experienced players have the knowledge of this is most meta or given certain areas of the game this is my next power spike or their knowledge of enemies and bosses makes power scaling choices less influential so they just go with whatever they want. Less experienced players may see certain upgrades as way more important than a seasoned veteran.

Hopefully that makes things more clear.

[kanna]

Originally posted by thorin.hannahs:

Which of these jumps out at you as this one makes me feel the best once achieved? Or given your preferred play style which of these do you prioritize and optimize first? Or given X amount of playthroughs my route always leads me to this branch of power scaling upgrades to be completed first.

Oh, okay. So you're asking what each of us likes to do with regard to collecting charms, abilities, and upgrades on each run?

In my case, I generally won't do two runs the same way (including collecting upgrades) unless my goal is to improve my time on a specific route. For me, replaying a Metroidvania casually means trying new things. For example, on my last run I tried to do a Primal Aspid skip in Kingdom's Edge so I could get to the second Hornet fight without wings. (I say "tried" because I couldn't figure out how to coax the Aspid up to the middle level so I could pogo it to the top level. I ended up just letting it kill me and then using first the Aspid and then my much more cooperative Shade to get up there.)

There's a player on here sometimes named perseus who has talked a couple of times about playing as far into the game as you can without Mantis Claw. I'm probably going to be trying that out next as it sounds like a fun challenge to figure out skips and solve platforming puzzles and see where the game "ends" for you (because you can't get an actual ending without Claw).

Nothing is truly mandatory for me anymore on a casual run. I just get whatever is convenient along the way to wherever I'm going. In the past though, since I also am most comfortable with combined nail and spell use, I have favoured all upgraded spells, and Strength and Shaman Stone with some combination of soul collection + either a nail extender or Quick Slash. (Now in Godhome though, I've become quite partial to Strength, Shaman Stone, Sprintmaster, and Soul Eater, when not overcharming.) I don't bother with mask shards anymore, but I might get vessel fragments when they're convenient.

[Noborus]

Originally posted by thorin.hannahs:

Which of these jumps out at you as this one makes me feel the best once achieved? Or given your preferred play style which of these do you prioritize and optimize first? Or given X amount of playthroughs my route always leads me to this branch of power scaling upgrades to be completed first.

Usually i get sharpened nail and shade soul, i don't bother getting ddark or shriek cause not only does it take forever but i'm not a fan of those spells, i feel it makes things too easy. And for charms i only get shaman stone. Unless i'm doing 106% or something like that.

[kanna]

Isn't 106% the one where runners get Flukenest? That would be interesting to learn.