advice for noob

[dedf15]

hey all, i need a little help in my playthrough.

it just feels like no matter how long i play, no matter how many charms i collect, or masks i have, by now i'm at the 92% point (i'm still not sure exactly which grubs i'm missing), but i've got every one of the mobility skills,

and no matter what, each boss fight, even the sub bosses like the flukemarm, are practically impossible that it takes hundreds of tries and dozens of hours each time. i don't think i'm terrible at platformers, and like i said, i've gotten most of the charms like quick slash and mark of pride...

yet they are so supremely frustrating, and have insane hp totals, and keep kiting me out of nowhere with odd shots or attack patterns that fill up the screen so fast (i'm looking at YOU, Nightmare King...). i dared step foot inside the God home exactly once, and never again, thank you very much!

seriously, what am i doing wrong? i like this game, but if it's this frustrating just by nature, i may just call it quits here and move onto something more my speed (you know, like maple story, i dunno)

[Perseus]

Originally posted by dedf15:

i don't think i'm terrible at platformers,

I don't think your platforming skills are relevant to (most) boss fights.
Most boss fights are primarily about recognizing attacks and reacting in time to avoid them, which doesn't require much platforming skill.

I'm not actually sure what you're having trouble with.
You mentioned Flukemarm as being a difficult boss. When you fought it, was your nail upgraded twice?
If it was, could you describe what made the fight difficult for you?

What about the Mantis Lords? You've defeated them, was the fight on the same level of difficulty as other boss fights?
And if it was, what do you think you struggled with?


(Side note just in case : After not playing for a while, some people forget that they have the ability to heal (focus), which makes the game a lot more difficult. Would this happen to be the case for you too?)

[purevessel]

I started playing games beign unable to beat a single common enemy. Its not a skill thing. Maybe its your charms, or nail upgrades. At the worst is a bad playstyle, which can be improved.

[Perseus]

Originally posted by PureVessel:

I started playing games beign unable to beat a single common enemy. Its not a skill thing. Maybe its your charms, or nail upgrades. At the worst is a bad playstyle, which can be improved.

I think it can definitely be a skill thing. Skill can improve, but not necessarily at the same rate for everyone.

[purevessel]

Originally posted by Perseus:

Originally posted by PureVessel:

I started playing games beign unable to beat a single common enemy. Its not a skill thing. Maybe its your charms, or nail upgrades. At the worst is a bad playstyle, which can be improved.

I think it can definitely be a skill thing. Skill can improve, but not necessarily at the same rate for everyone.

Skill does improve at the same rate as anyone. Its just some people are more patient and so go on and try more in the same amount of time. Say you need 100 tries, the person who has 1 try per hour takes 100 hours, while someone can take about 3. Yet they still improve at the same rate.

[JustALonelyDude]

Originally posted by PureVessel:

Originally posted by Perseus:

I think it can definitely be a skill thing. Skill can improve, but not necessarily at the same rate for everyone.

Skill does improve at the same rate as anyone. Its just some people are more patient and so go on and try more in the same amount of time. Say you need 100 tries, the person who has 1 try per hour takes 100 hours, while someone can take about 3. Yet they still improve at the same rate.

um no?
im pretty sure thats wrong. everyone's skill improves at different rates. thats just how humans work i think.

[Elimm]

Don't forget to utilize your spells! For example, a quick spam of Abyss Shrieks can quickly remove Flukemarm's entire health pool. They are powerful!

[purevessel]

Originally posted by JustALonelyDude:

Originally posted by PureVessel:

Skill does improve at the same rate as anyone. Its just some people are more patient and so go on and try more in the same amount of time. Say you need 100 tries, the person who has 1 try per hour takes 100 hours, while someone can take about 3. Yet they still improve at the same rate.

um no?
im pretty sure thats wrong. everyone's skill improves at different rates. thats just how humans work i think.

I meant mostly not. There isnt gonna be someone in the same situation and experience who needs that much more tries.

[JustALonelyDude]

Originally posted by PureVessel:

Originally posted by JustALonelyDude:

um no?
im pretty sure thats wrong. everyone's skill improves at different rates. thats just how humans work i think.

I meant mostly not. There isnt gonna be someone in the same situation and experience who needs that much more tries.

there is tho? i mean, like some people are really good and quick at math and some people are not. even though they have taken all the same courses and are the same age and everything.
some people are naturally better and hand-eye coordination than others, regardless of experience. some people take more experience to get to the same skill level of others who may have needed less. every human brain is different and unique.

[purevessel]

Originally posted by JustALonelyDude:

Originally posted by PureVessel:

I meant mostly not. There isnt gonna be someone in the same situation and experience who needs that much more tries.

there is tho? i mean, like some people are really good and quick at math and some people are not. even though they have taken all the same courses and are the same age and everything.
some people are naturally better and hand-eye coordination than others, regardless of experience. some people take more experience to get to the same skill level of others who may have needed less. every human brain is different and unique.

Respectfully, i dont think so. Let me give you an example, lets take another game. Elden ring. At the start i died many times to the tutorial boss. By that logic, i should be pretty bad. Now i beat the hardest non-dlc boss hitless, many times, and a boss with far more hp than i should be fighting. On my first playthrough of HK, it took me the same amount of tries as i saw my friend take to beat false knight. From a bad start, i was able to listen to hornet and git gud, and at equal star, we took the same tries. This isnt math. Enemies have patterns, you experiment dodges, and by taking those who work best, we manage to beat them. Im pretty sure no one knew before playing hollow knight NKG's attack patterns. Hell, intelligence is irrelevant, this selection is mostly subconscious. I cant remember any "amazing" player who hasnt spent a lot of time training. Fireborn, who most people consider a good player, defines god gamers as people who spent hundreds of hours training, not people who were already good.

[Perseus]

Originally posted by PureVessel:

Let me give you an example, lets take another game. Elden ring. At the start i died many times to the tutorial boss. By that logic, i should be pretty bad. Now i beat the hardest non-dlc boss hitless, many times, and a boss with far more hp than i should be fighting. On my first playthrough of HK, it took me the same amount of tries as i saw my friend take to beat false knight. From a bad start, i was able to listen to hornet and git gud, and at equal star, we took the same tries.

None of this is a counterargument to any of what you were responding to.
You and your friends are just two people, that's not a large enough sample to prove your point.

Originally posted by PureVessel:

This isnt math. Enemies have patterns, you experiment dodges, and by taking those who work best, we manage to beat them.

This has nothing to do with skill growth rate, unless you do actually need to "experiment dodges" to defeat most enemies and bosses,
which would prove my point because i didn't and don't need to do that¹.
I understood how to dodge the vast majority of attacks before they finished.

¹Except for poorly-telegraphed attacks, of which there are very few in Hollow Knight.

Originally posted by PureVessel:

Hell, intelligence is irrelevant, this selection is mostly subconscious.

There are a lot of variables involved in how skill grows, and intelligence (and related things) is one of them. The ability to make up strategies, to understand exactly how an attack works, to realize you're doing something wrong, to question your own decisions is one of them.
Your skill will have a lot of trouble growing if you keep doing something horribly wrong.

Originally posted by PureVessel:

Im pretty sure no one knew before playing hollow knight NKG's attack patterns.

NKG's attacks are almost the same as TMG (first Grimm fight)'s, and i beat TMG first try.
Same thing with both Hornet fights. Same thing with the third pantheon's final boss.
Despite never seeing those bosses before, i still beat them on my first attempt, because i adapted quickly enough. Because my skill grew quickly enough.

Originally posted by PureVessel:

I cant remember any "amazing" player who hasnt spent a lot of time training. Fireborn, who most people consider a good player, defines god gamers as people who spent hundreds of hours training, not people who were already good.

What you define as "amazing player" or what Fireb0rn defines "god gamers" is likely based on something subjective, like "being good at speedrunning the game", or "being able to beat bosses hitless", i.e. something that inevitably requires mindless training (and even then, some people will get the hang of it faster than others).
But this discussion is about defeating bosses for the first time, and that does not require mindless training.
(Personally, my definition of an "amazing player" for any given game¹ is based on how "well" someone plays on their first playthrough, because that's when a player interacts with the "core" of a game the most.

¹Excluding Roguelikes, for which "first playthrough" is very difficult to define.)


End note : Because this is supposed to be OP's topic for a request for advice. I won't answer to whatever you respond to this, if anything. I don't want to derail this topic any further.

[purevessel]

Originally posted by Perseus:

Originally posted by PureVessel:

Let me give you an example, lets take another game. Elden ring. At the start i died many times to the tutorial boss. By that logic, i should be pretty bad. Now i beat the hardest non-dlc boss hitless, many times, and a boss with far more hp than i should be fighting. On my first playthrough of HK, it took me the same amount of tries as i saw my friend take to beat false knight. From a bad start, i was able to listen to hornet and git gud, and at equal star, we took the same tries.

None of this is a counterargument to any of what you were responding to.
You and your friends are just two people, that's not a large enough sample to prove your point.

Originally posted by PureVessel:

This isnt math. Enemies have patterns, you experiment dodges, and by taking those who work best, we manage to beat them.

This has nothing to do with skill growth rate, unless you do actually need to "experiment dodges" to defeat most enemies and bosses,
which would prove my point because i didn't and don't need to do that¹.
I understood how to dodge the vast majority of attacks before they finished.

¹Except for poorly-telegraphed attacks, of which there are very few in Hollow Knight.

Originally posted by PureVessel:

Hell, intelligence is irrelevant, this selection is mostly subconscious.

There are a lot of variables involved in how skill grows, and intelligence (and related things) is one of them. The ability to make up strategies, to understand exactly how an attack works, to realize you're doing something wrong, to question your own decisions is one of them.
Your skill will have a lot of trouble growing if you keep doing something horribly wrong.

Originally posted by PureVessel:

Im pretty sure no one knew before playing hollow knight NKG's attack patterns.

NKG's attacks are almost the same as TMG (first Grimm fight)'s, and i beat TMG first try.
Same thing with both Hornet fights. Same thing with the third pantheon's final boss.
Despite never seeing those bosses before, i still beat them on my first attempt, because i adapted quickly enough. Because my skill grew quickly enough.

Originally posted by PureVessel:

I cant remember any "amazing" player who hasnt spent a lot of time training. Fireborn, who most people consider a good player, defines god gamers as people who spent hundreds of hours training, not people who were already good.

What you define as "amazing player" or what Fireb0rn defines "god gamers" is likely based on something subjective, like "being good at speedrunning the game", or "being able to beat bosses hitless", i.e. something that inevitably requires mindless training (and even then, some people will get the hang of it faster than others).
But this discussion is about defeating bosses for the first time, and that does not require mindless training.
(Personally, my definition of an "amazing player" for any given game¹ is based on how "well" someone plays on their first playthrough, because that's when a player interacts with the "core" of a game the most.

¹Excluding Roguelikes, for which "first playthrough" is very difficult to define.)


End note : Because this is supposed to be OP's topic for a request for advice. I won't answer to whatever you respond to this, if anything. I don't want to derail this topic any further.

1. Hence why i didnt say everyone. Im speaking from the evidence i myself have, and i also specified how much evidence i had. And you yourself dont have more evidence, so youre also including yourself.
2. I am aware. If an enemy shoots a fireball at me i know im not supposed to touch it. I know that. Im speaking for harder bosses, in which executing isnt as easy as knowing how to dodge. Example, pure vessel's slash. Its obvious youre supposed to get away, yet you arent fast enough, and so need to memorize when you can jump over to save a shade dash or when you need to use it.
3. I know that. But im not talking about me thinking what dodging was better, im talking about what i said above, which is subconscious. hence why even if i dont even think about the bossfight im trying for again and again, i get better. Strategy isnt what im talking about.
4. I beat radiance first try. And sisters of battle. And winged nosk. And THK. And watcher knights. And Uumuu. Why? Because i was equipped to, and so was able to make singular tries against attacks, allowing me to learn during the battle. Not because i learn faster or something.
5. I mean what other people regard as good. And you admit its mindless.

And i dont think you read this whole discussion. I started with basically saying "Hey i dont think its a skill thing. Maybe its charms or smth." Im not talking about OP, because thats not what we were talking about. We were talking in general about skill growth.

Furthermore, i think that definition kind of makes no sense. I just think a definition beign forever permanent no matter how much you train is wrong. My own definition was (if a player had a new challenge of the game which we are talking about, respectng its game's design, of which (the challenge) they had no prior experience, in their current state, how many tries would it take for them to beat said challenge?)

[LuckyCheshire]

Originally posted by PureVessel:

-snip-

Let's switch to a different example for a second. Let's say running instead of gaming. By your argument, anyone could tie with Usain Bolt if they train for an equal amount of time as he did. Try telling that to his Olympic competitors and see what they think of that idea. Now, I'm not saying that someone can't become a good runner unless they have the potential of Usain Bolt. Even if you're a naturally uncoordinated person with noodly legs, if you put in the work you can become a good, or even great, runner. You could even surpass someone who is naturally skilled at running, but who didn't train hard. You can even surpass someone naturally talented who did train hard, by just training that little bit harder. If two people put in exactly identical amounts of effort though, the more talented one is going to win. That's just how life is. Some people are just naturally better at certain things than others. Trying to put everyone on an exactly equal starting line (to confuse the metaphor a bit) is reductive.

[MADE IN IRON]

Originally posted by dedf15:

hey all, i need a little help in my playthrough.

it just feels like no matter how long i play, no matter how many charms i collect, or masks i have, by now i'm at the 92% point (i'm still not sure exactly which grubs i'm missing), but i've got every one of the mobility skills,

I don't want to spoil you, but don't worry that much about Grubs. At certain point you'll find a solution to find them all.

Originally posted by dedf15:

and no matter what, each boss fight, even the sub bosses like the flukemarm, are practically impossible that it takes hundreds of tries and dozens of hours each time. i don't think i'm terrible at platformers, and like i said, i've gotten most of the charms like quick slash and mark of pride...

Please, don't take it wrong, but with practice you improve. I've played the game, made it to the "final boss room" and couldn't defeat it. After a while, I replayed it, and then replayed it all over again. And every time I got better (easy to say I got better because I had a lot of room for improvement) so you can get better, as long as you find it fun and wish to keep playing.

Originally posted by dedf15:

yet they are so supremely frustrating, and have insane hp totals, and keep kiting me out of nowhere with odd shots or attack patterns that fill up the screen so fast (i'm looking at YOU, Nightmare King...). i dared step foot inside the God home exactly once, and never again, thank you very much!

I don't agree that much with that. Most bosses repeat paterns, and they kinda let you know what are they going to do next with a sound, with a subtle movement. The problem is you have very little time to react so maybe you don't recognize the patterns. My advice would be when you find a frustrating boss, leave it for a while, and try to learn their patterns from a Youtube video where you can play it at slower speed, so you can identify every attack. You'll still have little time to react, but you'll understand the pattern and it will make it easier.

Originally posted by dedf15:

seriously, what am i doing wrong? i like this game, but if it's this frustrating just by nature, i may just call it quits here and move onto something more my speed (you know, like maple story, i dunno)

If you don't enjoy the game anymore, I won't tell you to keep playing. But maybe try to find different aproaches to bosses. There are different playstyles, different charms, you have spells, you just need to find what works for you,

And at some point, maybe you reach your peak. I reached mine, I cannot complete the Trial of the Fool or defeat the very final boss. I accepted it, and it's ok. Maybe you reached your peak too.

[purevessel]

Originally posted by LuckyCheshire:

Originally posted by PureVessel:

-snip-

Let's switch to a different example for a second. Let's say running instead of gaming. By your argument, anyone could tie with Usain Bolt if they train for an equal amount of time as he did. Try telling that to his Olympic competitors and see what they think of that idea. Now, I'm not saying that someone can't become a good runner unless they have the potential of Usain Bolt. Even if you're a naturally uncoordinated person with noodly legs, if you put in the work you can become a good, or even great, runner. You could even surpass someone who is naturally skilled at running, but who didn't train hard. You can even surpass someone naturally talented who did train hard, by just training that little bit harder. If two people put in exactly identical amounts of effort though, the more talented one is going to win. That's just how life is. Some people are just naturally better at certain things than others. Trying to put everyone on an exactly equal starting line (to confuse the metaphor a bit) is reductive.

This is the exact thing i disagree with. Running and games are different in so many things they cant be compared. Talent in this case would be less like videogame talent, which doesnt really exist, but more like your keyboard. A hard limit.
Furthermore i didnt put everyone at an equal starting line. My aim in FPS games sucks. I said people improve at the same speed.

[purevessel]

Originally posted by MADE IN IRON:

Originally posted by dedf15:

hey all, i need a little help in my playthrough.

it just feels like no matter how long i play, no matter how many charms i collect, or masks i have, by now i'm at the 92% point (i'm still not sure exactly which grubs i'm missing), but i've got every one of the mobility skills,

I don't want to spoil you, but don't worry that much about Grubs. At certain point you'll find a solution to find them all.

Originally posted by dedf15:

and no matter what, each boss fight, even the sub bosses like the flukemarm, are practically impossible that it takes hundreds of tries and dozens of hours each time. i don't think i'm terrible at platformers, and like i said, i've gotten most of the charms like quick slash and mark of pride...

Please, don't take it wrong, but with practice you improve. I've played the game, made it to the "final boss room" and couldn't defeat it. After a while, I replayed it, and then replayed it all over again. And every time I got better (easy to say I got better because I had a lot of room for improvement) so you can get better, as long as you find it fun and wish to keep playing.

Originally posted by dedf15:

yet they are so supremely frustrating, and have insane hp totals, and keep kiting me out of nowhere with odd shots or attack patterns that fill up the screen so fast (i'm looking at YOU, Nightmare King...). i dared step foot inside the God home exactly once, and never again, thank you very much!

I don't agree that much with that. Most bosses repeat paterns, and they kinda let you know what are they going to do next with a sound, with a subtle movement. The problem is you have very little time to react so maybe you don't recognize the patterns. My advice would be when you find a frustrating boss, leave it for a while, and try to learn their patterns from a Youtube video where you can play it at slower speed, so you can identify every attack. You'll still have little time to react, but you'll understand the pattern and it will make it easier.

Originally posted by dedf15:

seriously, what am i doing wrong? i like this game, but if it's this frustrating just by nature, i may just call it quits here and move onto something more my speed (you know, like maple story, i dunno)

If you don't enjoy the game anymore, I won't tell you to keep playing. But maybe try to find different aproaches to bosses. There are different playstyles, different charms, you have spells, you just need to find what works for you,

And at some point, maybe you reach your peak. I reached mine, I cannot complete the Trial of the Fool or defeat the very final boss. I accepted it, and it's ok. Maybe you reached your peak too.

I dont think peaks exist in gaming. It took me days and days to beat trial of the fool yet i could. And then i beat it hitless (with fotf). There exists soft blocks (Difficulty spikes) but hard blocks (Limits or peaks) I, personally, have not found true ones, given time even something like path of pain hitless could be done, while originally i got hit hundreds of times in white palace. If it exists, its not found in normal gaming or even extremely hard challenges. Only something like a hyperspeed anyrad 3.0 can be someone's limit, imho.