Dear Team Cherry, You owe Me a meme.

[KoUJkoDeBo4ka]

So, I've been practicing in a Hall of Gods, occasionally trying and failing the 5th Pantheon. At some point I've made a decision, that I want to have some fun and make a video of Me defeating Nightmare King Grimm with Grimmchild as an only damage source (as I did with the Trial of Fool some time ago). Well, what do You know, Grimmchild DO NOT SPAWN in Troupe Master Grimm and Nightmare King Grimm fights.
That does not make sence, since we do not need Grimmchild equipped to enter those fights, thus, he shall not being taken from us, and the whole situation is a game-breaking glitch, that needs to be fixed.

And, more importantly, I want Myself a meme з:

[Desticler]

In Hall of Gods, he isn't required. In base game, he IS required.

[KoUJkoDeBo4ka]

Originally posted by Desticler:

In Hall of Gods, he isn't required. In base game, he IS required.

That's the point. Why is he still banned in Hall of Gods? That should not be the thing.

[GSandSDS]

Hmm, how can you fight Nightmare King Grim when Grimchild IS the reincarnation of Nightmare King Grim and already on your side on the battle field? Even though the idea of Nightmare King Grimm wrecking himself is intriguing. Maybe they should – just as a joke – have made an own battle behaviour of both Grims to this scenario. ;)

[Appaguchee]

"Burn the father, feed the child"

Why should the child not be a part of burning the father in the first place is intriguing. I mean, they are on the screen at the same time at some points, so why would it not work anyways? I wish that team cherry had someone who would comb through the discussions and answer questions sometimes.

[KoUJkoDeBo4ka]

Originally posted by GSandSDS:

Hmm, how can you fight Nightmare King Grim when Grimchild IS the reincarnation of Nightmare King Grim and already on your side on the battle field? Even though the idea of Nightmare King Grimm wrecking himself is intriguing. Maybe they should – just as a joke – have made an own battle behaviour of both Grims to this scenario. ;)

Well then, how can we fight him and everyone else, if they are already dead? Or at least, most of them.

Originally posted by Appaguchee:

"Burn the father, feed the child"

Why should the child not be a part of burning the father in the first place is intriguing. I mean, they are on the screen at the same time at some points, so why would it not work anyways? I wish that team cherry had someone who would comb through the discussions and answer questions sometimes.

Yep. Also fair point.

[GSandSDS]

Originally posted by Ezergile:

Well then, how can we fight him and everyone else, if they are already dead? Or at least, most of them.

The power of "dream space". In Hollow Knight you can fight dream echos/ghosts/whatever of already deceased creatures everywhere, why not in Godhome? But TKG isn't just dead. He reincarnated.

[Arti_Sel]

Originally posted by Appaguchee:

"Burn the father, feed the child"

Why should the child not be a part of burning the father in the first place is intriguing. I mean, they are on the screen at the same time at some points, so why would it not work anyways? I wish that team cherry had someone who would comb through the discussions and answer questions sometimes.

I'm pretty sure the flame is a feeling of hatred or pursuit of vengeance brought about by watching it's father die and having to kill the people it grew up with. That's why you have to bring the grimchild to the fight but it doesn't participate on either side.

Whatever the case, the mechanism of the flame doesn't allow for it to exist in both father and child at the same time, it's inconceivable even within the dream.

[Appaguchee]

Originally posted by Arti_Sel:

Originally posted by Appaguchee:

"Burn the father, feed the child"

Why should the child not be a part of burning the father in the first place is intriguing. I mean, they are on the screen at the same time at some points, so why would it not work anyways? I wish that team cherry had someone who would comb through the discussions and answer questions sometimes.

I'm pretty sure the flame is a feeling of hatred or pursuit of vengeance brought about by watching it's father die and having to kill the people it grew up with. That's why you have to bring the grimchild to the fight but it doesn't participate on either side.

Whatever the case, the mechanism of the flame doesn't allow for it to exist in both father and child at the same time, it's inconceivable even within the dream.

I suppose if you think of it like a phoenix both the newborn child and the crumbling old bird can't exist at the same time.

[KoUJkoDeBo4ka]

Originally posted by GSandSDS:

Originally posted by Ezergile:

Well then, how can we fight him and everyone else, if they are already dead? Or at least, most of them.

The power of "dream space". In Hollow Knight you can fight dream echos/ghosts/whatever of already deceased creatures everywhere, why not in Godhome? But TKG isn't just dead. He reincarnated.

That still does not mean that GC should not be allowed in GMT or NKG fights. Pure Vessel at the present time is corrupted by Radiance, and, as it was said by the Godseeker, him being in Godhome in his true form is allowed only due to the Godtuner's nature of resonating with echo of a powerful being, which both PV and NKG are. But PV is not a dream version of HK, he is the REAL PAST version of HK. Thus, in example of PV we can see, that Godhome denies rules of determinism, because consequence (namely - death or degradation of the outside world residents) do not influence the Godhome, but the Godhome does so with material realm. For example Absolute Radiance's defeat led to the ending, and it is clear, that in this ending the Radiance is dead for good, even though we did not fought her in her "real" location within the Dream-pocket in HK. This means, that Grimmchild's existence should not conflict with the ability to fight NKG and he should not be disabled in this specific fight. Also, despite NKG being "reincarnate" and whatever, one of his dreamnail lines during the battle in Godhome directly lets us know, that he is aware of being summoned by the Godseeker into the Pantheon\Hall of Glory. Yes, he is the higher being, and this is the reason, but it means, that the creature we fight with is the real NKG, or *real enough* to not be just a trapharet of itself's past. Thus, as it looks, this specific rule is not necessity, but rather something, that was just leftover, because on a technical level they probably just copypasted his code to include him in the Godhome, and forgot to remove the code lines, wich disables GC for both battles.

[Arti_Sel]

Originally posted by Appaguchee:

Originally posted by Arti_Sel:

I'm pretty sure the flame is a feeling of hatred or pursuit of vengeance brought about by watching it's father die and having to kill the people it grew up with. That's why you have to bring the grimchild to the fight but it doesn't participate on either side.

Whatever the case, the mechanism of the flame doesn't allow for it to exist in both father and child at the same time, it's inconceivable even within the dream.

I suppose if you think of it like a phoenix both the newborn child and the crumbling old bird can't exist at the same time.

That's what makes the most sense to me. If they ever decided to put an interaction in godhome it should be one were the grimchild turns on you. You lose the grimchild charm forever and the bossfight upgrades to nightmare grim 2.0

[KoUJkoDeBo4ka]

Originally posted by Arti_Sel:

Originally posted by Appaguchee:

"Burn the father, feed the child"

Why should the child not be a part of burning the father in the first place is intriguing. I mean, they are on the screen at the same time at some points, so why would it not work anyways? I wish that team cherry had someone who would comb through the discussions and answer questions sometimes.

I'm pretty sure the flame is a feeling of hatred or pursuit of vengeance brought about by watching it's father die and having to kill the people it grew up with. That's why you have to bring the grimchild to the fight but it doesn't participate on either side.

Whatever the case, the mechanism of the flame doesn't allow for it to exist in both father and child at the same time, it's inconceivable even within the dream.

It would be somewhat reasonable, if not the fact, that in the GTM fight Grimm practically fused with the GC to spark GC's fire up through the heat of battle, and in the very moment of GC's evolution from one form to another his father stood here and wathced him. And also, he physically is right there before we are dream nailing him, just like his child. They have no restrictions of existing in the same time and space.

[KoUJkoDeBo4ka]

Hey, also, one more rock into the "reincarnation" theory.
When You are trying to fight NKG with Grimmchild equipped, he does not disappear from Your charm list, as he did in the TMG fight. In TMG's he was taken from you with the words "charm lost", and in the NKG's case there was a seal, that needed You to have GC to transparent to the Nightmare realm. But if in the Godhome You do not need GC to be equipped to get here, then GC should not left You in the battle.

[Arti_Sel]

Originally posted by Ezergile:

Originally posted by Arti_Sel:

I'm pretty sure the flame is a feeling of hatred or pursuit of vengeance brought about by watching it's father die and having to kill the people it grew up with. That's why you have to bring the grimchild to the fight but it doesn't participate on either side.

Whatever the case, the mechanism of the flame doesn't allow for it to exist in both father and child at the same time, it's inconceivable even within the dream.

It would be somewhat reasonable, if not the fact, that in the GTM fight Grimm practically fused with the GC to spark GC's fire up through the heat of battle, and in the very moment of GC's evolution from one form to another his father stood here and wathced him. And also, he physically is right there before we are dream nailing him, just like his child. They have no restrictions of existing in the same time and space.

Grimchild and Grim-master are separate from the flame. They can keep parts of it within them, but they are both vessels. The whole purpose of the ritual is to transfer the flame from master to child. You think they just burn master Grim at the end of it for the hell of it? Do you think the ritual is completely devoid of meaning and emotion for the participants?

Originally posted by Ezergile:

Hey, also, one more rock into the "reincarnation" theory.
When You are trying to fight NKG with Grimmchild equipped, he does not disappear from Your charm list, as he did in the TMG fight. In TMG's he was taken from you with the words "charm lost", and in the NKG's case there was a seal, that needed You to have GC to transparent to the Nightmare realm. But if in the Godhome You do not need GC to be equipped to get here, then GC should not left You in the battle.

I imagine that both Grim and Grimchild are more than robots in the lore. For whatever reason Grimchild does not fight Master Grim. Complaining about that is like complaining about a lack of imagination.

For another thing i don't mean that everyone should have to fight a NKG 2.0 in godhome, I'm saying it would be a nice touch if you bring the grimchild to him. Kinda like how accidently walking around with the mushroom charm activates a secret optional quest. Optional secret bossfights are cool.