Completing Ascended boss hitless should also award the Radiant medal

[D. Seitaro]

A feature like this would be really nice when someone manages to defeat some of the more challenging bosses on Ascended difficulty without getting hit, while they still had the Radiant difficulty locked.

I've noticed that it's not a thing after defeating the Collector on Ascended hitless.

[Noborus]

It doesn't really feel like it'd fit imo, i beat somebody (forgot who) hitless on Ascended and struggled to do it again on Radiant before, and that idea did cross my mind, but i wasn't really surprised when i saw it didn't exist, and didn't care much for it to exist.

[kanna]

I remember I did PV hitless on my first try Ascended. It's such a learned fight it wasn't that hard to do it Radiant after, but I also definitely did NOT get it done on my very first try on Radiant. I agree with Coco on this. It's debatable, but there's something about the idea of setting out with the intention and achieving it that I think might have been part of the devs' decision there.

*edited* for clarity because I somehow left out the "did NOT" above.

[D. Seitaro]

Both of your arguments make absolutely no sense.
Explain to me, how exactly a quality of life improvement is bad for the game?

[tintingaroo]

Their points make sense to me.

I'd say when facing the Radiant challenge there is the tension/pressure that isn't there for Ascended: 'One hit and it's over...', 'I'm so far into this fight - one mistake will ruin this...'
Ascended you have that leeway and aren't facing that high a level of tension and the challenge feels different.
The stakes are different - the mindset is different.
Asc, your intention is not 'I need to beat the boss flawless', switch to Rad and its in your mind.

Mindset after getting a flawless on Ascended:
'Wow I accidently did it - now I gotta recreate that where it counts'. That can have a daunting slant (Oh man, I have to be able to do that again) or be confidence building (I already accomplished the challenge - just to do it for real).

[D. Seitaro]

Originally posted by tintingaroo:

Their points make sense to me.

I'd say when facing the Radiant challenge there is the tension/pressure that isn't there for Ascended: 'One hit and it's over...', 'I'm so far into this fight - one mistake will ruin this...'
Ascended you have that leeway and aren't facing that high a level of tension and the challenge feels different.
The stakes are different - the mindset is different.
Asc, your intention is not 'I need to beat the boss flawless', switch to Rad and its in your mind.

Mindset after getting a flawless on Ascended:
'Wow I accidently did it - now I gotta recreate that where it counts'. That can have a daunting slant (Oh man, I have to be able to do that again) or be confidence building (I already accomplished the challenge - just to do it for real).

If a game forces you to repeat exactly the same thing, then it's a bad design. No ifs or buts.

And there is no such thing as a different mindset. One who plays Ascended difficulty hoping to do it hitless will feel the same pressure as someone who plays on Radiant difficulty. In both situations one hit means you have to start over, so treating those as 2 different runs is ridiculous.

If I already did the boss on highest possible difficulty without getting hit, then I should also receive the highest possible reward. Doing it again is just a time waster. I know I'm capable of doing it for the second time, but it'll take another attempt, or more for tougher bosses to do it.

[🉑 rezno[R].technology]

I agree with D. Seitaro. This really would feel like a Quality of Life improvement for the game (removing redundancy). When I noticed that Radiant must be done separately, I felt the same exact thing.

[Soju]

Originally posted by D. Seitaro:

If a game forces you to repeat exactly the same thing, then it's a bad design. No ifs or buts

But it's not the same thing, that's what Tintingaroo's post was saying.

Originally posted by D. Seitaro:

And there is no such thing as a different mindset. One who plays Ascended difficulty hoping to do it hitless will feel the same pressure as someone who plays on Radiant difficulty. In both situations one hit means you have to start over, so treating those as 2 different runs is ridiculous.

IF you go into Ascended hoping to do it hitless then sure the mindset may be the same but not everyone does that, I know I don't. I see each fight as a progression of challenges.

[Noborus]

Originally posted by D. Seitaro:

And there is no such thing as a different mindset. One who plays Ascended difficulty hoping to do it hitless will feel the same pressure as someone who plays on Radiant difficulty. In both situations one hit means you have to start over, so treating those as 2 different runs is ridiculous.

One who plays Ascended difficulty hoping to do it hitless will not feel the same pressure as if they were to play it on Radiant difficulty, as you can afford to get hit a few times on Ascended, which generally makes it even worse if you're trying to no-hit a boss, because trying again is a longer process, as you have to purposely get hit to be able to die, and retry it.
It's not hard to realize there is a huge difference between accidentally doing a boss hitless on Ascended, and intentionally doing a boss on Radiant, being able to take damage and not die instantly really tends to change your mindset a lot, and makes you not get as overwhelmed.
Part of the challenge in this game is being able to handle pressure, and still keep yourself under control. You do not deserve to have a boss completed on Radiant if you cannot handle the pressure of doing it on Radiant. It's not just learning boss patterns and effective counters, but you also need to stay calm so you don't lose focus.
Imagine you're fighting Absrad at the end of the 5th Pantheon, knowing that dying will make you restart the entire Pantheon is a lot of pressure, which is quite literally part of the challenge.

Originally posted by D. Seitaro:

If I already did the boss on highest possible difficulty without getting hit, then I should also receive the highest possible reward. Doing it again is just a time waster. I know I'm capable of doing it for the second time, but it'll take another attempt, or more for tougher bosses to do it.

I don't know about you, but i don't want to have the Ascended and Attuned difficulties automatically completed when i do a boss on Radiant. I would really dislike that being a feature in the game, as Ascended hitless is not the same thing as Radiant.

[tintingaroo]

Originally posted by D. Seitaro:

If a game forces you to repeat exactly the same thing, then it's a bad design. No ifs or buts.

I don't agree that is necessarily bad design.
In any case Ascended and Radiant aren't asking the player to do the exact same thing - Ascended is challenging you to beat a tougher boss and one that deals greater damage. Radiant is asking the player to beat that same boss but take no damage.

Originally posted by D. Seitaro:

And there is no such thing as a different mindset. One who plays Ascended difficulty hoping to do it hitless will feel the same pressure as someone who plays on Radiant difficulty. In both situations one hit means you have to start over, so treating those as 2 different runs is ridiculous.

Well that is the players mindset or self-imposed restrictions/challenge not what the game's design is asking or set up for. The game's designs is the game's design, a player's mindset doesn't mean that it is bad design (except for that player, I guess).

Originally posted by D. Seitaro:

If I already did the boss on highest possible difficulty without getting hit, then I should also receive the highest possible reward. Doing it again is just a time waster. I know I'm capable of doing it for the second time, but it'll take another attempt, or more for tougher bosses to do it.

My thinking is get on and do the challenge, but if you consider your hitless Ascended the same as Radiant and think it's a time-waster then don't bother doing it - in your mind you've already done the challenge. Leave it or mod the save to say you've done it.

But really, go for the Radiant!

[D. Seitaro]

Originally posted by Soju:

Originally posted by D. Seitaro:

If a game forces you to repeat exactly the same thing, then it's a bad design. No ifs or buts

But it's not the same thing, that's what Tintingaroo's post was saying.

Originally posted by Co‏‏‏‏‏co:

One who plays Ascended difficulty hoping to do it hitless will not feel the same pressure as if they were to play it on Radiant difficulty

I've already explained how hitless Ascended and Radiant are exactly the same, and I'm not gonna explain it again. And you can't disprove that.

Originally posted by Co‏‏‏‏‏co:

as you can afford to get hit a few times on Ascended

If you get hit, then it's no longer a hitless Ascended run. I don't know how simpler I can explain it to you.

Originally posted by Co‏‏‏‏‏co:

because trying again is a longer process, as you have to purposely get hit to be able to die, and retry it.

Originally posted by tintingaroo:

Is that what you do? Do you go for Ascended and aim for hitless? If you get hit do you restart?

If you're smart, then you'll do your next attempt on Radiant difficulty, instead of purposely losing on Ascended. But since Radiant difficulty is locked at first, a feature to unlock Radiant medal for completing Ascended hitless is QoL. Either that, or make Radiant difficulty available without winning on Ascended first. As I've said, it's a time waster in its current state.

Originally posted by Co‏‏‏‏‏co:

It's not hard to realize there is a huge difference between accidentally doing a boss hitless on Ascended, and intentionally doing a boss on Radiant

You don't do the hitless Ascended "accidentally". You go for the boss with a clear idea in your head "I can't allow myself to get hit, else I'll have to fight him again on Radiant"

Originally posted by Co‏‏‏‏‏co:

being able to take damage and not die instantly really tends to change your mindset a lot, and makes you not get as overwhelmed.

Again, not understanding what a hitless Ascended run is.

Originally posted by Co‏‏‏‏‏co:

I don't know about you, but i don't want to have the Ascended and Attuned difficulties automatically completed when i do a boss on Radiant. I would really dislike that being a feature in the game, as Ascended hitless is not the same thing as Radiant.

I'm lost how you don't realize how stupid that is.
A lot of games have a difficulty settings. And then some of them have achievements/trophies for completing the game on specific difficulty. Usually, if you complete the game on hard, you'll also unlock the achievements for Normal and Easy mode. But by your logic, you would demand from players to beat the 20h game 3 times, each time on a different difficulty.

Originally posted by tintingaroo:

In any case Ascended and Radiant aren't asking the player to do the exact same thing - Ascended is challenging you to beat a tougher boss and one that deals greater damage. Radiant is asking the player to beat that same boss but take no damage.

Ascended hitless is the same as Radiant. You're making the same mistake as Coco and Soju.

[tintingaroo]

I'd edited out the question but as it's quoted I'll ask it:
So you approach Ascended with the aim for hitless?
And when you get hit you restart it?

Ah forget it, I know the answer will be no, so let me not be mean about it.
The point I would have made is that on Radiant you will be punished for taking a single hit and will have to restart. You go into the fight with that in your mind - the 'fear' of that is there. I would say no one goes into the Ascended fight with the idea of beating it hitless. They are there to beat Ascended or perhaps practice for Pantheon stuff or similar.
So unless you are restarting after each hit, Ascended hitless is not the same as Radiant. You are accomplishing the end goal but you are not faced with the same punishment. You are not going into the fight with the intention to beat it hitless - that happens by accident. You are not playing with the pressure that going for hitless brings.

[kanna]

I accidentally left out some words in my last post, but tintingaroo still got my intent thankfully.

As Coco and tintingaroo both put it, as much as we might sometimes want it to be for bosses that are harder for us, Radiant isn't only about repeating the exact same boss as Ascended hitless. I mean, would it be necessary for it to even have its own mode then? You could just do Ascended over again to "upgrade" your light to Radiant. But no, Radiant is its own distinct difficulty. That means rising to the challenge *despite the pressure* is an inherent part of the Radiant difficulty level.

Seems to me this is a similar design decision to having the harder bosses deal two masks of damage. (Part of the reason for that case is clearly so that people aren't just damage tanking and fluking their way through but they're actually learning each fight properly.)

Generally speaking (short of someone having specific disabilities that affect game play), any player that wants to do these fights hitless can learn to do so. Not necessarily every time on demand, but with some level of predetermination that they *intend* to do so. It's up to each individual if they want to accept the challenge involved (with either the glass half full or half empty viewpoint tintingaroo described) and face that additional pressure.

BUT if it's all the same to you and you want to circumvent that challenge, then there are mods you can probably use to do so.

[fractalmuse]

If they really are supposed to be such separate modes, then it doesn't make sense to gatekeep Radiant fights behind Ascended ones. As it is, even if you already know how to/already have the skill to do the boss without getting hit, you still have to do the fight twice to get the medal for no real reason.

Radiant should simply have been available from the start along with Attuned and Ascended.

[Boksha]

Think of it this way: in competitive videogames, does a team consistently winning scrims or even online tournaments mean they will probably win against the same opponents on a LAN tournament with a live audience?

The answer is hell no; many teams that do fine in a safe environment get nerves when the pressure is up. It's the same for Ascended vs. Radiant.

A huge part of games is psychology. You can take a purely rational approach to videogames, and you'll probably pretty consistently come to wrong answers about what game designs work and which don't. And hey, maybe for you the extra pressure doesn't matter, but for a lot of players it does, even if you consider that stupid.

[kanna]

Originally posted by fractalmuse:

If they really are supposed to be such separate modes, then it doesn't make sense to gatekeep Radiant fights behind Ascended ones. As it is, even if you already know how to/already have the skill to do the boss without getting hit, you still have to do the fight twice to get the medal for no real reason.

Radiant should simply have been available from the start along with Attuned and Ascended.

The fact it's not available from the start doesn't really relate to the fact that's available separate from Ascended. Attuned is the equivalent of what people have already seen in the outside game. Many people getting to Godhome are looking for more of a challenge than that and it would be tedious to force people to do it. Radiant is a whole other story. If someone is ready to do Radiant, then Ascended is not going to be a huge deal to get through as a warm up. If they're not, then Ascended is the best practice.