Why does Hollow Knight do this? [mild spoiler]

[oprah winfrey]

Why does he stabs himself during the fight? I have some really vague understanding of the game's lore, and I have no idea why is he doing this? It makes me so sad, especially with that music, it bursts my tears, like bro, I know I came here and we fight, cause you are the boss, but you don't have to do this, come on, bro...

[Noborus]

Originally posted by kanna:

Originally posted by Ghost:

He stated himself because for the second when he starts to Stan himself he snaps back to reality for a sec and he tries to kill himself to stop the radiance

No voice to cry suffering, remember? So who "stated" this (or is "stated" a translation issue)? I like the interpretation that HK is trying to help us (just like how it helps us in the Dream No More ending as Coco mentioned above), but this is never explicitly stated at any point. In fact, I could see a competing argument that since HK killing itself probably would NOT kill the Radiance, maybe she's making him do that too, for her own benefit.

I think the HK acted as a vessel for the infection, in the abyss there's all the imperfect vessels that the pale king created to store the infection, eventually they realized the pale king had malicious intentions, but it was too late. I'm still confused about hornet though, is she one of the siblings? Even so she doesn't have the powers of the void, she says she's the protector of hollownest but i don't know if that's true.
Again this is all what i picked up from the story, i'm not making statements i'm expressing my understanding.

[Noborus]

I do wonder what team cherry actually intended to make the story. I hate this game for making me feel really bad about doing something, like killing all the ghosts in the Spirits Glade, or killing menderbug.

[kanna]

Originally posted by Coco:

Originally posted by kanna:

No voice to cry suffering, remember? So who "stated" this (or is "stated" a translation issue)? I like the interpretation that HK is trying to help us (just like how it helps us in the Dream No More ending as Coco mentioned above), but this is never explicitly stated at any point. In fact, I could see a competing argument that since HK killing itself probably would NOT kill the Radiance, maybe she's making him do that too, for her own benefit.

I think the HK acted as a vessel for the infection, in the abyss there's all the imperfect vessels that the pale king created to store the infection, eventually they realized the pale king had malicious intentions, but it was too late. I'm still confused about hornet though, is she one of the siblings? Even so she doesn't have the powers of the void, she says she's the protector of hollownest but i don't know if that's true.
Again this is all what i picked up from the story, i'm not making statements i'm expressing my understanding.

It would be interesting if HK actually turned away from the PK while trying to contain the infection and it's possible, but I think most people tend to take from the scene at the end of Path of Pain and the White Lady's dialogue about PV being misjudged because of an "idea instilled," that HK saw the PK as a father figure though. (Also there's the removed HK dream nail dialogue some people like to reference even though it's no longer part of the game.)

Hornet is a sibling of the vessels (remember the "Sealed Siblings" ending?), and she also has some of their strength. She's not a vessel herself, though. Same father, different mother, and she was "bred" for a different purpose - a political pact between Hallownest and Deep Nest.

Hornet has a will, a voice, emotions and all that kind of stuff the vessels are not supposed to have (though I think there are subtle hints vessels and void beings DO have their own will and that the whole premise of creating vessels was flawed from the get go). She's not a void being at all (i.e. no "Shade"). White Lady calls her "gendered child," which is very different from how she refers to the Knight or PV.

[MADE IN IRON]

Originally posted by Coco:

I'm still confused about hornet though, is she one of the siblings? Even so she doesn't have the powers of the void, she says she's the protector of hollownest but i don't know if that's true.

She is their half sister, and as you say, her lack of the void prevents her to contain the infection.
But as her being Hallownest protector, I think it might be due her love for Herrah. Herrah sacrificed herself to become a Dreamer, maybe Hornet is trying to honour her sacrifice by guarding what she stood for.

Originally posted by kanna:

Your second possibility there makes a lot of sense. I've always wondered why Deep Nest rejected the Pale King even though Herrah says "Fair Bargain Made" when you Dream Nail her. I mean, maybe it's the soundtrack when you're with the Dreamers that's influencing me but I just can't convince myself that she intentionally deceived the Pale King. Having Hornet was a prize and she sacrificed herself partly because she cherished Hornet.

She sacrificed herself becoming a Dreamer. Wouldn't that be the sacrifice and Hornet the reward? I'm just guessing....

Originally posted by kanna:

I like the interpretation that HK is trying to help us (just like how it helps us in the Dream No More ending as Coco mentioned above), but this is never explicitly stated at any point. In fact, I could see a competing argument that since HK killing itself probably would NOT kill the Radiance, maybe she's making him do that too, for her own benefit.

I've seen the discussion about what is HK trying to do by the stabbing before. Someone said that as you well say, killing HK won't kill the Radiance, the stabbing might be the Radiance trying to spread the infection, or even the Radiance trying to free herself from her prisson (HK). Maybe the restrains over HK prevented her to do so before and the moment HK is released she tries to get free... I can also guess that what our little Knight is trying to do (become the vessel in the first ending) wouldn't work if the Radiance gets rid of the HK, so maybe she is trying to make the Knight to fail.

Anyway, I agree with you. I like the idea of HK trying to help. It's a really sad fight, the whole picture makes me think so. Not only because of the music (which is as sad as it can be) but also you can realise something is wrong with HK, the movements tell about a deterioration, an impairment. I think the Knight is there to release HK from suffering, so it has to be something left from the HK to save.

[MADE IN IRON]

Originally posted by Coco:

I do wonder what team cherry actually intended to make the story. I hate this game for making me feel really bad about doing something, like killing all the ghosts in the Spirits Glade, or killing menderbug.

You felling bad about killing them means the game is great, otherwise you wouldn't care about some NPC in a game.

[kanna]

Originally posted by MADE IN IRON:

Originally posted by Coco:

I'm still confused about hornet though, is she one of the siblings? Even so she doesn't have the powers of the void, she says she's the protector of hollownest but i don't know if that's true.

She is their half sister, and as you say, her lack of the void prevents her to contain the infection.
But as her being Hallownest protector, I think it might be due her love for Herrah. Herrah sacrificed herself to become a Dreamer, maybe Hornet is trying to honour her sacrifice by guarding what she stood for.

Seems as though Hornet is protecting the Pale King's plan for Hallownest, but she changes her mind and backs our Knight eventually instead (like Monomon). I also think that she had to *wilfully* become a Dreamer in the Sealed Siblings ending. It didn't happen by accident. This tells me she cares about at least PK's and the White Lady's idea of how Hallownest should be "protected."

She sacrificed herself becoming a Dreamer. Wouldn't that be the sacrifice and Hornet the reward? I'm just guessing....

Well I think that Herrah admired the PK and that's why she wanted to have his child. It seems like the Weavers/Spiders eat everybody else in Deep Nest, but they can't eat the power of a god like PK. This was the closest way for them to have that power. But I like to think she must have genuinely loved Hornet, because I'm pretty sure she also says she sacrificed herself for Hornet's sake when you Dream Nail her, and also Hornet has fond memories of her mother. (The Weavers den citizens were loyal to Hornet too, or they wouldn't call her "princess.")

Anyway, I agree with you. I like the idea of HK trying to help. It's a really sad fight, the whole picture makes me think so. Not only because of the music (which is as sad as it can be) but also you can realise something is wrong with HK, the movements tell about a deterioration, an impairment. I think the Knight is there to release HK from suffering, so it has to be something left from the HK to save.

Yeah I noticed that *right away* how HK was staggering around kind of slowly for a final boss. It's obvious that's from the infection but the stabbing part was a shock, on my first playthrough. Then you have the music starts and you wonder if you're doing the right thing by finishing this fight. I was already doubting the Knight's path when I approached my first Dreamer (Monomon), but luckily I Dream Nailed her and figured out that the situation must actually be kinda complicated if even one of the Dreamers wants us to remove their "protections."

[kanna]

Originally posted by MADE IN IRON:

Originally posted by Coco:

I do wonder what team cherry actually intended to make the story. I hate this game for making me feel really bad about doing something, like killing all the ghosts in the Spirits Glade, or killing menderbug.

You felling bad about killing them means the game is great, otherwise you wouldn't care about some NPC in a game.

I might be wrong, but I think Coco was saying the same thing as you, just in a different way. :')

[BoppyDoppy]

answering the origingal question, hk attacks you b/c it knows that the knight is hollow, and it is not, so it is trying to kill itself so you can contain the radiance

[Noborus]

Originally posted by 󰀑BoppyDoppy 󰀑:

answering the origingal question, hk attacks you b/c it knows that the knight is hollow, and it is not, so it is trying to kill itself so you can contain the radiance

I've never heard this theory before, it's also a possibility. We won't know what hollow knights true lore is supposed to be unless team cherry tells us, though i'm unsure they knew exactly what the story was themselves.

[oprah winfrey]

Originally posted by 󰀑BoppyDoppy 󰀑:

answering the origingal question, hk attacks you b/c it knows that the knight is hollow, and it is not, so it is trying to kill itself so you can contain the radiance

But why would he fight us in first place in that case?

[BoppyDoppy]

Originally posted by Coco:

Originally posted by 󰀑BoppyDoppy 󰀑:

answering the origingal question, hk attacks you b/c it knows that the knight is hollow, and it is not, so it is trying to kill itself so you can contain the radiance

I've never heard this theory before, it's also a possibility. We won't know what hollow knights true lore is supposed to be unless team cherry tells us, though i'm unsure they knew exactly what the story was themselves.

Im pretty sure mossbag said that at some point, and i have heard several people in the hk discord say it, though its not cannon unless tc comfims it

[kanna]

Originally posted by oprah winfrey:

But why would he fight us in first place in that case?

The Radiance can control those she has infected with her plague. The one thing most people seem to agree on is that she has taken at least partial control of THK's actions. Since the entire purpose of the Vessels' existence is to be her jail, and since the Void is her "Ancient Enemy" (this is Dream Nail dialogue from the Radiance herself), her number one priority is for any Vessels to die.

Originally posted by 󰀑BoppyDoppy 󰀑:

Originally posted by Coco:

I've never heard this theory before, it's also a possibility. We won't know what hollow knights true lore is supposed to be unless team cherry tells us, though i'm unsure they knew exactly what the story was themselves.

Im pretty sure mossbag said that at some point, and i have heard several people in the hk discord say it, though its not cannon unless tc comfims it

Yes, this is one of many possible spins on the "HK is helping you" theory. We just didn't go into detail about possible motives above. That's heading into heavy speculation, but it can definitely be fun to speculate on different theories and find evidence for the ones that interest us.

Also, consider that vessels aren't even supposed to think, or have a "will" (meaning having a "motive" should not be a thing for them), and yet despite the Pale King's and White Lady's hopes, they clearly do.