POH/P5 *SPOILERS!!

[Daan-B]

for all the newbies, here be spoilers!
do not read unless you want spoilers!



alright with that out of the way.




SO..... I beat the first 4 pantheon's. then tried the fifth. died to NKG, practiced the against NKG. Did it fifth pantheon again, died to pure vessel but got him unlocked so i could practice the fight. I can now semi-consistently beat PV. So i tried the fifth pantheon again, beat NKG and PV. then i obviously died to The Absolute Radiance. So i've been practicing the fight with TAR.. I haven't won yet. The movesets of NKG and PV were fine, it was mostly the speed that made them difficult, you simply need the muscle memory (i mean that one exploding attack from PV can be nasty if you wanna try to use the window for healing ).

But TAR though, i've gotten to the third phase once. i almost always get to second (though sometimes with more health then other times). But i can not for the life of me beat it.

So does anyone have some tips?

[Noborus]

Please remove the spoilers in the title, i'm sure you're aware that you are not in the spoilers section, and PoH can be a pretty sensitive topic. New players often look through threads so if you could keep it clean, that would be great.

I don't have any tips since i haven't beaten it yet, i only attempted it one time after completing p4 though, i could beat it if i tried enough probably.

[kanna]

Since you posted in the General section instead of the Spoiler section, please think of newer players to the game and change the title to "PoH" or "P5" so they won't get spoiled.

Anyway, maybe you didn't notice but NKG and PV are both in the Hall of Gods before you can even start PoH. There are plenty of threads on here about how to fight AR. Search for those, and If I can find it, I'll try to add a link to one of the better ones that also links to a nice but hard-to-find guide by HuntHustle (who is one of the few with video evidence of having done P5 hitless).

OK I don't know if the guide I mentioned is linked (like I said, hard to find as it's a link from an unlisted Youtube), but start here: https://steamcommunity.com/app/367520/discussions/0/3108025660980199273/

[Nen☆niN]

Didn't bother to follow Kanna's link, but a tip I've seen and taken to heart is: prioritize dodging over dealing damage. You will almost certainly get hit either way; so find good opportunities to heal. Always look at where the swords appear. Otherwise, waiting with healing until a phase-shift occurs might be viable. There's enough time to heal six times from second to third phases, and before the platform climb.
Also, switching up your charms may be a good idea. I owe my victory to Carefree Melody and Baldur's Shell charm combo. It allowed me to capitalize on taking damage, big recommend.
Phase after the ascension; just nail pogo, balls disappear off-screen. Dash and Monarch wings when she teleports.

[kanna]

Thanks for updating the thread title.

Carefree Melody, huh? Personally I wouldn't want to lose notches I could use for damage or soul collection to an RnG-dependent charm, but it's certainly possible it could help. Probably a better gamble for a Radiant fight. The thing is if you're new to the fight you're going to get hit a lot so I can't imagine CM would make much of a difference.

If you need advice from experienced players and you don't want to click a thread link (as there is a lot of good *detailed* advice there from people who probably don't want to repeat themselves here), I would again suggest searching the forum for the boss name, or checking out the guides on Youtube.

[Nen☆niN]

Originally posted by kanna:

Thanks for updating the thread title.

Carefree Melody, huh? Personally I wouldn't want to lose notches I could use for damage or soul collection to an RnG-dependent charm, but it's certainly possible it could help. Probably a better gamble for a Radiant fight. The thing is if you're new to the fight you're going to get hit a lot so I can't imagine CM would make much of a difference.

If you need advice from experienced players and you don't want to click a thread link (as there is a lot of good *detailed* advice there from people who probably don't want to repeat themselves here), I would again suggest searching the forum for the boss name, or checking out the guides on Youtube.

Carefree/Baldur's Worked wonders for me. I don't think anything else would've fit better in those five notches of mine; never got a soul deficit and many people don't use spells enough to warrant spell charms.

> "The thing is if you're new to the fight you're going to get hit a lot so I can't imagine CM would make much of a difference."
It's when you get hit that CM makes a difference. Taking damage (or blocking it with Baldur's Shell) increases the chance to dodge the next attack (can also save durability for Baldur's). Average dodge chance is 22.4% (source: fandom wiki (grain of salt yadda yadda)). That's basically a conversion to 20% more time to attack the boss instead of healing. Baldur's Shell allows for ballsy attempts at healing when you otherwise wouldn't even want to try, even more time gain, and even mask gains if it works out. Don't forget that even if you get interrupted halfway through the healing, you build up to your next dodge.

As said though, yeah, probably an unorthodox build, and I actually thought of it when fighting Radiants, but it may work wonders for those who use spells less, especially against bosses who deal two masks.

[kanna]

Well congrats then. In nearly a year of participating on HK's Steam forum, this is the farthest I've heard of anyone taking tanking hits as a fighting style. Planning on doing Radiant Hall of Gods or P5 bindings, or the second PoH ending? (For the other ending, it's normally much easier after you've developed at least some level of consistency at all the bosses.)

And I should have said before-- you should post (or link) your source if you're quoting somebody. Not only is it nice to give credit to whoever helped you; it might help somebody else when they search and find this thread.

[Noborus]

Thank you for changing the title!
Another tip which might be pretty obvious but it's still a very common problem, try to stay calm the whole time, don't let your nerves get to you. Even if you don't feel like your nervous, you're probably still shaking and your heart is beating fast. Also try to create a strategy for each attack and/or series of attacks, so every time lets say she does the wall spike attack, it may be random but if you have a backup plan in case you get hit or something doesn't go as expected, it helps a lot.

[Nen☆niN]

Originally posted by kanna:

Well congrats then. In nearly a year of participating on HK's Steam forum, this is the farthest I've heard of anyone taking tanking hits as a fighting style. Planning on doing Radiant Hall of Gods or P5 bindings, or the second PoH ending? (For the other ending, it's normally much easier after you've developed at least some level of consistency at all the bosses.)

And I should have said before-- you should post (or link) your source if you're quoting somebody. Not only is it nice to give credit to whoever helped you; it might help somebody else when they search and find this thread.

Instead of training in order to build up skill, I learnt to take advantage of my weaknesses. You should've just told me to git gud.
The other ending you're talking about is just the flower one, right? I am currently doing radiant bosses with the same loadout. I shudder to think about P5 bindings

"Average [block] chance is 22.4%"
source: https://hollowknight.fandom.com/wiki/Carefree_Melody

[kanna]

Originally posted by NenniN:

"Average [block] chance is 22.4%"
source: https://hollowknight.fandom.com/wiki/Carefree_Melody

Oh, the reason I said that you should list a source was because I thought you were quoting someone else, but you were actually just talking about a strategy you came up with on your own. You mentioned fandom wiki but it's good of you to add a link as well. Well that's even better that you worked this out on your own. I'm just curious how consistent this strategy of yours can be and how far you might be able to take it.

Regarding your question, yes, I did mean the Delicate Flower-altered ending.

If you keep playing the game btw, you will inevitably build up your skill enough not to have to worry about getting hit so much that it would end a boss or P5 run and you can probably have your fights end sooner and try different approaches to each fight, but of course you should really just do what's fun for you.

[Nen☆niN]

Originally posted by kanna:

Originally posted by NenniN:

"Average [block] chance is 22.4%"
source: https://hollowknight.fandom.com/wiki/Carefree_Melody

Oh, the reason I said that you should list a source was because I thought you were quoting someone else, but you were actually just talking about a strategy you came up with on your own. You mentioned fandom wiki but it's good of you to add a link as well. Well that's even better that you worked this out on your own. I'm just curious how consistent this strategy of yours can be and how far you might be able to take it.

Regarding your question, yes, I did mean the Delicate Flower-altered ending.

If you keep playing the game btw, you will inevitably build up your skill enough not to have to worry about getting hit so much that it would end a boss or P5 run and you can probably have your fights end sooner and try different approaches to each fight, but of course you should really just do what's fun for you.

Sorry if this post got way too long, I just love the fact that I finally got to talk (monologue) about this combo with someone who seems at least mildly interested in it.

I only ever truly struggle(d?) against NKG, PV and Absrad (as well as failed champion but don't tell anyone). I had already developed this charm build by the time I first got to the end of P5, so regarding Absrad I have nothing to compare it to, and as I said, there's nothing really I can put in those notches that would serve my playstyle better. All these bosses also deal two masks of damage, but neither Carefree Melody nor Baldur's Shell care about the amount of masks (damage is damage), so the combo obviously works best when fightning such foes.

After I take some damage, I find it reasonably effective to actually wait for just a small opportunity to heal one mask and intentionally let the Baldur's shell absorb the next hit (instead of waiting for a bigger healing opportunity)(small oportunities include the small window between Abs Rad's sword wall bursts), building up to the next dodge while allowing me to heal a mask in a situation I wouldn't heal without the shell. This also works against follow-up attacks after NKG's spikes, sometimes allowing me to heal twice and block an attack, but for PV I try to not damage the shell to keep it completely intact for Absrad. I only go for one-mask heals against PV and try to dodge out instead of blocking, so the charm notches I use on Baldur's is essentially, best case scenario, wasted on PV, although I can get in a good dodge if I ended NKG on a good dodge percentage, as well as the lifeblood from bench room essentially boosting the dodge chance up a couple of levels before you need to heal, but I rarely feel like my life is threatened when fighting PV nowadays.

When fighting radiants in Hall of Gods it feels more RNG-dependent instead of something that builds up with consecutive hits and blocks, but I guess that's a given. I also haven't played as much radiants as I'd like, so maybe I develop some sense for that.

Carefree melody essentially just lets me heal less in general, and take more advantage of small healing opportunities during which I block with shell. So, abstractly, the combo can allow healing to occur when it shouldn't, multiply it by some factor and send some of it to the future (represented by a CM dodge). Heal your future and current self.

Excluding these three bosses, CM basically gives you another lifeblood heart during all the normal bossfights if you did some bindings, and it's just a quality of life to not need to heal as much. Against White Defender though, I use the shell when he digs to get free heals and dodges even if he ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ me, as well as during Flying Nosk. This charm setup basically lets me to not give a crap about reading the trajectories of Flying Nosk's projectiles. Those are the bosses that see most use from the charm combo, but as said CM just lets me spend less time healing and more time slashing.

My friend had this idea of throwing in Hiveblood, which would make healing even easier, with blocking and CM dodging while the honeymasks regenerate, but that would overcharm if I wanted my Mark of Pride and Strength, so Hiveblood stays in the exploration and platforming section of charms for me at least.

Also, the other ending essentially just requires beating P5 again, so I most likely will do that sometime.

And regarding "If I keep playing the game...". Yea. That's probably true. But I don't wanna git gud. I like this setup because it takes Baldur's Shell, a charm I loved the idea of but never saw real usefulness during my first couple of playthroughs, and completely makes it go bonkers (in comparison to how it was in the overworld) with another charm allowing me to take even more advantage of Baldur's. I suggest you at least try it out, it's definitely a suboptimal build if you're a hardcore Hollow Knight gamer but it's at least fun as hell to use, and it changes how to use focusing when fighting bosses.

[kanna]

Originally posted by NenniN:

Sorry if this post got way too long, I just love the fact that I finally got to talk (monologue) about this combo with someone who seems at least mildly interested in it.

No worries, and like I said, I was curious.

I only ever truly struggle(d?) against NKG, PV and Absrad (as well as failed champion but don't tell anyone). I had already developed this charm build by the time I first got to the end of P5, so regarding Absrad I have nothing to compare it to, and as I said, there's nothing really I can put in those notches that would serve my playstyle better. All these bosses also deal two masks of damage, but neither Carefree Melody nor Baldur's Shell care about the amount of masks (damage is damage), so the combo obviously works best when fightning such foes.

Reading between the lines of this and the rest of your post, the charm combo put you over the top but you probably weren't too far from getting there without it. (Nail-only fighting is usually the harder way to go than using lots of spells too.)

So, abstractly, the combo can allow healing to occur when it shouldn't, multiply it by some factor and send some of it to the future (represented by a CM dodge). Heal your future and current self.

Every now and then some disgruntled folks come by and try to say there's no depth to this game's combat. Posts like this fly right in the face of that. As far as I can tell, the reason you can pull this off though is a combination of both good strategy and skill. Not everyone could.

This charm setup basically lets me to not give a crap about reading the trajectories of Flying Nosk's projectiles. Those are the bosses that see most use from the charm combo, but as said CM just lets me spend less time healing and more time slashing.

Up to you if you want to try this, but I pay very little attention to Winged Nosk's projectile trajectories myself, because I can just Shadow dash through as they're about to hit and use a double jump to land wherever I want. (I figured that out while doing Ascended Nosk I think, but it's completely transferrable to the winged variant too.)

My friend had this idea of throwing in Hiveblood, which would make healing even easier, with blocking and CM dodging while the honeymasks regenerate, but that would overcharm if I wanted my Mark of Pride and Strength, so Hiveblood stays in the exploration and platforming section of charms for me at least.

Makes sense. Then even when your Baldur's Shell block ends an attempted heal early, you could potentially still recover (or get closer to recovering) a mask. But I bet there'd also be a lot of times it already healed the mask and it's just doing nothing but wasting your notches. :/

Also, the other ending essentially just requires beating P5 again, so I most likely will do that sometime.

It sounds like there might be some consistency to this setup so I'm curious if you find getting there much different the next time. (Unfortunately it's not hugely different in terms of what you see unfold but the difference that's there is technically significant to the future of the game's world, imo at least.

But I don't wanna git gud.

I was just pointing out that if you're good at strategizing and you're not bad at PV for example, you're probably going to find yourself improving, regardlesss. Notice I wasn't telling you how you should play the game. I might make a suggestion in case you're interested (like with Nosk above-- and I have the spoiler there so you can skip it if you prefer), but there isn't one "gud" way to play this game.

What I was getting at is that if you find that style doesn't suit you some day, you can develop some other approach that you like with some other charm combo (swapping in Hiveblood, Shape of Unn maybe, whatever interests you), or incorporate nail arts (which many people also neglect), or whatever. A lot of possibilities exist.

[Nen☆niN]

Originally posted by kanna:

Reading between the lines of this and the rest of your post, the charm combo put you over the top but you probably weren't too far from getting there without it. (Nail-only fighting is usually the harder way to go than using lots of spells too.)

I still firmly believe that frequent spell use during hard bosses aren't for me. I dislike the way I stall when using them, same thing goes for Nail Arts. I do use Nail Arts occasionally though, it's how I beat Sly (the extra range let me strike him after spin), and spells work extremely well against bosses I feel more confident against. And besides, the soul with my charm combo can be used to just block an attack, even at full health, to build up dodge if I can't be arsed to dodge a specific attack, so at least until my skill reaches a level of not getting hit as much I won't be using many more spells.

Every now and then some disgruntled folks come by and try to say there's no depth to this game's combat. Posts like this fly right in the face of that. As far as I can tell, the reason you can pull this off though is a combination of both good strategy and skill. Not everyone could.

I feel like the combat hides under a simple, yet elegant, guise with most of the depth completely optional and easy to miss. I sure as hell only used Nail button and spell button when first playing, but familiarizing myself with the in-game systems and facing even harder challenges let me and forced me to see the 'hidden depth' of the combat.

Also, I'd wager strategy and balls, but mostly strategy. Or I guess some skill is required to notice the small healing opportunities and pull of the small heals+blocks, but that mostly came naturally after using the charm build a while.

Thanks for the Nosk tip as well, I might as well try it out, at the radiant version if nothing else.

Makes sense. Then even when your Baldur's Shell block ends an attempted heal early, you could potentially still recover (or get closer to recovering) a mask. But I bet there'd also be a lot of times it already healed the mask and it's just doing nothing but wasting your notches. :/

Sadly, this is true. I'd so love to have Hiveblood in there but it just isn't a wothwile addition, especially at four notches. Thing is, Hiveblood doesn't seem to have particularly good combo potential with any charms (and oh, have I tried to find some), and even it's synergy with Joni's Blessings seems like a folly. Double time for mask heals? This means you'll have to be king at dodging for it to have an effect, but having that kind of skill renders the Blessing reduntant. Best part of hiveblood (besides White Palace and auto-healing shipdamage in the overworld) is that it at least makes your masks cool.

Also, the other ending essentially just requires beating P5 again, so I most likely will do that sometime.

It sounds like there might be some consistency to this setup so I'm curious if you find getting there much different the next time. (Unfortunately it's not hugely different in terms of what you see unfold but the difference that's there is technically significant to the future of the game's world, imo at least.[/quote]

I played P5 again just for sport and to see the time, didn't actually bother with the ending. I actually dusted the first phase of Abs Rad, put goofed up during the second phase and failed the fight. Got to comfortable while fighting the other bosses and tried to panic heal during bad times against Abs Rad (it was in the middle of the night as well). I could've beaten her that try if I just stayed calm and focused. Turns out Carefree melody isn't a free win charm. Who'd have thunk?

I was just pointing out that if you're good at strategizing and you're not bad at PV for example, you're probably going to find yourself improving, regardlesss. Notice I wasn't telling you how you should play the game. I might make a suggestion in case you're interested (like with Nosk above-- and I have the spoiler there so you can skip it if you prefer), but there isn't one "gud" way to play this game.

What I was getting at is that if you find that style doesn't suit you some day, you can develop some other approach that you like with some other charm combo (swapping in Hiveblood, Shape of Unn maybe, whatever interests you), or incorporate nail arts (which many people also neglect), or whatever. A lot of possibilities exist.

I meant it mostly in jest :P
I feel like the charm combo has reached it's maximum potential (for me at least), maybe stalwart shell or even fungal shroom would improve it but it already takes up five notches and swapping out either CM or Baldur's would completely change the build. In my book, this build has reached it's peak, if also factoring in cost. Of course, some super genius might come along and say deep focus is the best combo with this, what do I know? And as you may have implied, I might completely ditch the charms in the future in order to go for another playstyle entirely (I have kept my eyes on shape of unn for a while, though I'm thinking of what other charms it could use...). As for the suggestion you suggested, I suggest you suggest it if you want to, I'd happily read.

It feels like the untapped discussion potential of this build of mine has mostly been tapped and run out, unless you have something more to add?

I must confess, at the start of this discussion with you I actually felt a mild animosity towards you, but the discussion turned into the best community engagement I've had in a while, so thank you kindly. As such I'd feel it is customary to ask if you've had any unexpected, unorthodox or just funny charm builds yourself? Or just any of your 'normal' builds; what charms do you generally use and how well do they work for you?
Also, make sure to tell me what you think if you ever try out CM/Baldur's combo, even if it's a year from now!

[kanna]

Originally posted by NenniN:

So at least until my skill reaches a level of not getting hit as much I won't be using many more spells.

What I was getting at there is actually that you probably are getting better at dodging by not using spells so your fights have to go longer. Since you called them "slow" though, I'll just make sure you're aware there's a "Quick Cast" button/key (a lot of people miss this, because it's only in the menu). Casting with "Focus" is way slower.

Thanks for the Nosk tip as well, I might as well try it out, at the radiant version if nothing else.

No problem. Just to be clear about the beginning of that dodge, you jump up toward the infection blobs to nearly meet them in the air before dashing through and using wings.

I played P5 again just for sport and to see the time, didn't actually bother with the ending. I actually dusted the first phase of Abs Rad, put goofed up during the second phase and failed the fight. Got to comfortable while fighting the other bosses and tried to panic heal during bad times against Abs Rad (it was in the middle of the night as well). I could've beaten her that try if I just stayed calm and focused. Turns out Carefree melody isn't a free win charm. Who'd have thunk?

It happens. AR is a hard boss to get consistent at with any kind of set up. But I can think of at least one other player on here that might like to try using your charm combo, and I'll probably try it for randomizers (if I get the needed charms) where I need to go nail-only in a spot I normally wouldn't or heck, maybe I'll see how far it gets me with Radiant AbsRad or P5 with (non-charm) bindings. I'll need a new save file at that point though since I deleted the one I had left which had CM.

(I have kept my eyes on shape of unn for a while, though I'm thinking of what other charms it could use...). As for the suggestion you suggested, I suggest you suggest it if you want to, I'd happily read.

A while back, I liked Shape of Unn & Quick Focus. It's probably not that practical but it's fun to play around with and not too expensive in terms of charm cost iirc.

I must confess, at the start of this discussion with you I actually felt a mild animosity towards you, but the discussion turned into the best community engagement I've had in a while, so thank you kindly. As such I'd feel it is customary to ask if you've had any unexpected, unorthodox or just funny charm builds yourself? Or just any of your 'normal' builds; what charms do you generally use and how well do they work for you?
Also, make sure to tell me what you think if you ever try out CM/Baldur's combo, even if it's a year from now!

Why thank you. I probably sound harsh at times with some people but believe it or not, I generally just want to help people enjoy the game if they can.

Most of my charm use has been pretty boring. Since I like to use both nail and spells, it's Strength and Shaman's at all times, and then the rest varies depending on the situation.

Anyway, thanks for showing that strategic damage tanking could be viable for non-speedrunners even at later stage bosses than I've seen speedrunners do it with.