That buzzsaw bit...

[MaChao]

Genuine question:
The person who designed that bit, are they still working for Team Cherry?
If so, don't expect me to buy the sequel.

That bit turned an 11/10 into utter garbage...
You crafted one of the most beautiful games out there and ruin it with such dreck...
(I may just be overly salty because of it...)

[MaChao]

Nguyên văn bởi Boksha:

I also think it feels out of place; for the static buzzsaws, it would've made more sense to replace them with spikes, and the moving ones... I guess still spikes, but moving ones. Think spiked wheels meant to kill/maim intruders, as opposed to perfectly shiny high-velocity sawblades more suitable for cutting large amounts of timber.

The accepted theory of why the white palace is full of traps to begin with is that it's not actually what the white palace was like, but rather that what we're seeing is a sort of dream fortification meant to keep prying eyes out. Even then sawblades are a weird choice for traps. They don't really make sense in-universe.

What i found so strange about the theme was is, that the Pale King's own visual theme, from his Wyrm form to his crest...is spikes (or rather nails)...
Imagine imagery of the same traps, but it's the nails of every disposed privious vessel.
A nail graveyard, meant to protect kink and kingdom but ultimately show it's grotesque means to an end.

Visually, it's just strange. It's most definitely a nod towards Super Meat Boy, but as part of the main plot, it just sticks out like a sore thumb in an otherwise very sound and coherent presentation.

[kanna]

Just want to say I agree with the folks who mentioned the saw blades don't fit in the game, in terms of the world-building/story. The dream fortification theory Boksha mentioned makes a lot of sense with regard to why we see a White Palace that's full of traps, but why buzzsaws specifically? We'll probably never know. :')

[zorocancor]

[Arti_Sel]

Nguyên văn bởi MaChao:

Nguyên văn bởi Arti_Sel:

Have you considered that maybe this area is not meant to be fair? Keep in mind that you are in the optional lategame stage of the game.

Do you have similar complaints about the trial of the fool?

That's the thing: Challenging =/= Unfair.
The White Palace had some great jumping challenges too, so did Crystal Peak for instance.
All challenges to check abilities you were meant to hone on your way there.

True

Nguyên văn bởi MaChao:

There is no skill involved in not knowing there will be spears when jumping down a shaft.
The unfair bits serve no true purpose other than resetting you to the last checkpoint. No lesson learned, no skill improved.

Not true, I don't know how you got past that part, but if you listen you can hear the spears or you can just be quick enough to react.

Nguyên văn bởi MaChao:

And seeing how briliant the rest of the game is, no, i actually didn't consider it.
Because then i would need to assume that they willingly abandoned their core design philosophy for cheap "challenges".

It's not outside of their design philosophy, and I think the challenges are properly challenging for that stage of the game. This is a challenge that comes after defeating a lot of optional ghost bosses and backtracking a fair bit. If you rummage around in deepnest enough you can also find an optional, very hard (at that point) platforming puzzle.

Nguyên văn bởi MaChao:

The White Palaca would be less infuriating if it wouldn't stand in between you and 4 out of 5 endings. The Trial of the Fool is absolutely nuts...but also entirey optional in terms of lore/content.

You are thinking about it backwards, after hunting all those ghosts Team Cherry surpasses expectations by bringing more in the form of White palace and then after that the Radiance. White palace is partly a preparation for the second stage of that fight.

Being rewarded with lore at that point is supposed to be surprising and enjoyable, but I guess if you read a guide it just becomes another chore to go through to say that you finally beat the game.

if Team Cherry was a lesser developer then the Radiance fight would just be available from the start without having to go through White Palace. There would be no point in seeing the first ending and the presence of Hornet wouldn't be as surprising when you go to fight the Hollowknight for the final time.

Nguyên văn bởi MaChao:

Having it as part of the main story content is, imo, a mistake.

That's really my only real issue with it: It feels so out of place, why is it "mandatory"?
And yeah, i consider reaching an ending showing the actual big bad behind everything mandatory for the whole experience ^^

Well you fundamentally disagree with and/or misunderstand Team Cherry's design philosophy then. The "true" ending is not mandatory, the story can be considered finished when beating the Hollow Knight. Most vessels are supposed to fail, that's how the story goes.

[🉑 rezno[R].technology]

You still seem to be angry. I think I don't fully understand from where your anger comes from - what need of yours is not being met by the WP area, which makes you angry? Are you feeling angry at the game developers, because you would like to feel satisfied that you personally experienced the completely optional WP area the same way as you personally experienced some or most of the earlier game challenges before playing WP?

[MaChao]

Nguyên văn bởi Arti_Sel:

Snip

"I don't know how you got past that part, but if you listen you can hear the spears or you can just be quick enough to react."
By trial and error. As mentioned before, as soon as you know where these gotcha traps are, they pose no challenge unlike the rest of the more dexterity based challenges.
Which is my entire point. If you take these cheap shots out, the White Palace would have been a much more coherent challenge more in line with the rest of the games design decisions.

"It's not outside of their design philosophy, and I think the challenges are properly challenging for that stage of the game"
Again, i am NOT talking about it's many dexterity based platforming challenges. I am strictly talking about challenges designes unlike everything else found in the game, like several blind jumps. The challenge was good, i'm not talking about that.

We just have to agree to disagree with the rest though ^^

[MaChao]

Nguyên văn bởi 🉑 reznoR.technology:

You still seem to be angry. I think I don't fully understand from where your anger comes from - what need of yours is not being met by the WP area, which makes you angry? Are you feeling angry at the game developers, because you would like to feel satisfied that you personally experienced the completely optional WP area the same way as you personally experienced some or most of the earlier game challenges before playing WP?

First and foremost, anger has nothing to do with this. The original post was written partly tongue in cheek as the part in brackets should have indicated. I was salty, yes. But not angry.

I am, however, pretty passionate about it simply due to how great of an experience the game has been and i genuinely like a good, torough discussion. It's rare enough here on Steam.

So no, i'm not angry at anyone nor have i been.
At worst, i'm disappointed that such an important part of the story sticks out like a sore thumb gameplay and theming wise.

[(Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr]

Nguyên văn bởi MaChao:

Nguyên văn bởi Boksha:

I also think it feels out of place; for the static buzzsaws, it would've made more sense to replace them with spikes, and the moving ones... I guess still spikes, but moving ones. Think spiked wheels meant to kill/maim intruders, as opposed to perfectly shiny high-velocity sawblades more suitable for cutting large amounts of timber.

The accepted theory of why the white palace is full of traps to begin with is that it's not actually what the white palace was like, but rather that what we're seeing is a sort of dream fortification meant to keep prying eyes out. Even then sawblades are a weird choice for traps. They don't really make sense in-universe.

What i found so strange about the theme was is, that the Pale King's own visual theme, from his Wyrm form to his crest...is spikes (or rather nails)...
Imagine imagery of the same traps, but it's the nails of every disposed previous vessel.

They would be in the Abyss though, not in the palace. Only the Hollow Knight was seen worthy to be in the palace. Also most vessels probably didn’t get nails either. The ones we see that have them probably found them after they escaped the Abyss.

Nguyên văn bởi MaChao:

Visually, it's just strange. It's most definitely a nod towards Super Meat Boy, but as part of the main plot, it just sticks out like a sore thumb in an otherwise very sound and coherent presentation.

As I pointed out to Boksha, the sawblades have their own unique gameplay mechanic. They are the only obstacle in the game that negates the i-frame effect from Shade Cloak. This is likely because the King was aware of the void and created the dream obstacle course as a means of testing a new vessel’s worth should the Hollow Knight fail. Or the obstacle course was in the original palace and was made to test the Hollow Knight.

[Nibbie]

Nguyên văn bởi MaChao:

There is no skill involved in not knowing there will be spears when jumping down a shaft.

You can just slide down the wall there instead of dropping directly. You don't have to do any guesswork or trial and error that way. Jumping blindly down pretty much anywhere is a mistake, one that lots of us make in that area, true, but it is still our mistake, not something that couldn't have been easily prevented.

[kanna]

Nguyên văn bởi Nibbie:

Nguyên văn bởi MaChao:

There is no skill involved in not knowing there will be spears when jumping down a shaft.

You can just slide down the wall there instead of dropping directly. You don't have to do any guesswork or trial and error that way. Jumping blindly down pretty much anywhere is a mistake, one that lots of us make in that area, true, but it is still our mistake, not something that couldn't have been easily prevented.

Actually, for that drop with the stabby spears, aren't there safe spots on the sides so you don't even need to cling to the wall? Either way, you can drop close and then dash to the side as needed.

I think it was only the descent with the moving and stationary sawblades (which I mentioned abbove) that there's pretty much no way to prep for (or stall with). Since I learned the alternate path, I haven't been through that part for a while.

(Descending Dark is your friend in the White Palace. Well, that and good eyesight for spotting crumbly floors/walls.)

[MaChao]

Nguyên văn bởi kanna:

Descending Dark is your friend in the White Palace. Well, that and good eyesight for spotting crumbly floors/walls.

Good eyesight might be a good point, as i only have one eye left xD

[Boksha]

Nguyên văn bởi (Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr:

Nguyên văn bởi MaChao:

What i found so strange about the theme was is, that the Pale King's own visual theme, from his Wyrm form to his crest...is spikes (or rather nails)...
Imagine imagery of the same traps, but it's the nails of every disposed previous vessel.

They would be in the Abyss though, not in the palace. Only the Hollow Knight was seen worthy to be in the palace. Also most vessels probably didn’t get nails either. The ones we see that have them probably found them after they escaped the Abyss.

The White Palace is inside a dream though. Where the vessels' nails ended up in the physical world doesn't really matter; having spikes/nails instead of saw blades as traps in the White Palace would in general fit better with the Pale King.

[Arti_Sel]

Nguyên văn bởi Boksha:

Nguyên văn bởi (Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr:

They would be in the Abyss though, not in the palace. Only the Hollow Knight was seen worthy to be in the palace. Also most vessels probably didn’t get nails either. The ones we see that have them probably found them after they escaped the Abyss.

The White Palace is inside a dream though. Where the vessels' nails ended up in the physical world doesn't really matter; having spikes/nails instead of saw blades as traps in the White Palace would in general fit better with the Pale King.

It kinda feels like the sawblades were a placeholder asset, and then they just went ahead and released it anyway. But like we are lucky that this is one of the most legit complaints about the game. It's worlds away from the kind of ♥♥♥♥ larger devs like Bethesda and Blizzard expects to get away with. Thematic cohesion isn't even guaranteed enough to be criticized in a lot of games.

[Boksha]

Could very well be that it was originally meant to be a placeholder. And yeah, it's splitting hairs of course. I can understand OP too though; having thematic consistency in the most challenging part of the game could make it more bearable. People tend to be more accepting of hardship if it's explainable or 'fair'.

[MaChao]

Nguyên văn bởi Boksha:

Could very well be that it was originally meant to be a placeholder. And yeah, it's splitting hairs of course. I can understand OP too though; having thematic consistency in the most challenging part of the game could make it more bearable. People tend to be more accepting of hardship if it's explainable or 'fair'.

Exactly this!
My OP was hyperbole and loads of salt and i wouldn't care hald as much if i didn't love the game ^^

It's by no means a dealbreaker, but the main game set the bar SO high that it becomes much more noticable if things feel off.

And i just love theory crafting in cases like this ^^