Brilliant game with no regard for the player's time

[TreasureCat]

I'm loving Hollow Knight, I'm (I'd guess) 2/3 of the way through. The world is fascinating and the gameplay is pretty good. And also, part of me hates it. This game has no regard for the player's time whatsoever.

Fast travel points are relatively scarce, which would be fine, except that you're expected to do a ton of backtracking without any ability to mark points of interest on your map. The map system is actually cool. I don't mind using a compass or buying map icons, and the way you don't get to record new map data until you rest is really clever. The problem is, this being a metroidvania, you're going to see dozens of places you know you need to come back to later with a new ability, and you have no way of keeping track of them.

In other genre entries, either items you move past are marked on your map, or you're given some kind of pins that you can drop. Here there are neither. Also, entire sections of the map are filled out the moment you enter a room, rather than doing it by tiles ala Symphony, Metroid, etc. And the areas are huge, which again would be a positive if there were any mechanic dedicated to helping you keep track of them.

The amount of time I've spent just walking through areas I've already been looking for a spot I think the ground shook or just plain retracing an area I've cleared because now I can super dash is obscene. It's easily doubled my time with the game, and it's not fun to do. I don't even need geo anymore, so it's even less rewarding then it was early on.

Love this game and it could have been one of my favorite metroidvanias of all time, but as is I probably wouldn't recommend it to friends. It's just such a shame.

[CeliriaRose]

The game does have regard for the players time, it's just that it expects the player to actually overcome a challenge and figure things out without needing to have the game baby them in order to do it. It doesn't bury you in fast travel points because learning to navigate the world and get past the enemies is part of that challenge. It doesn't mark where breakable floors are because it expects you to learn the dungeon and remember where things are. If you do those things then it isn't wasting that much of your time to accomplish things, if you aren't then that's on you not the game. If you aren't a fan of that that's fine but it isn't a flaw with the game it's an intentional design for players who do like having to actually put in the effort.

[4thQueen]

It's okay to not like a game. It's okay to be overwhelmed by a game.

It's not okay to say that a game is bad because you don't remember what you've seen before.

The amount of fast traversal in the game is fine. You can get anywhere from anywhere else in just a couple of minutes. If you want immediate fast-travel with pinpoint accuracy, then perhaps exploration heavy games are just not for you.

And that's okay.

[Third Strongest Bunny]

These are perfectly legitimate requests and/or criticisms of the game. This blind defending of developer decisions should be dialed back a bit.

If, at current, I wanted to make a note of something I saw in the game, such as a point on the map where I would need to come back to after I got an ability, I would need to either go to my computer, and write out a detailed note outside the game, or get a piece of paper, crudely draw a map on it, and mark that point manually. This is unacceptable in the current age of gaming. Is implementing a pin system on the map so much of a big deal to some of you that you'd resort to low-key insulting OP's intelligence, rather than admit that the game could be subtley improved?

Furthermore, in my experience, going to areas that weren't immediately connected to a fast travel point was an exercise in redundancy. I had already played through these areas, sometimes many times, and experiencing the exact same rooms again did not add to my experience or increase my sense of immersion in any way. The same is true for any boss that wasn't close to a bench. After the 5th time, traversing the same area gets annoying.

The game is beautiful. It's fantastic. I enjoyed it immensely, and it's one of my favorite Metroidvanias of all time. But a few crucial design decisions definitely undermine the experience, and ALL of them are absolutely related to saving time on things that are easily classified as redundant, mundane, time-saving tasks that wouldn't change the overall experience in any notable, negative way.

[4thQueen]

Originally posted by Third Strongest Bunny:

These are perfectly legitimate requests and/or criticisms of the game. This blind defending of developer decisions should be dialed back a bit

Originally posted by Third Strongest Bunny:

This is unacceptable in the current age of gaming. Is implementing a pin system on the map so much of a big deal to some of you that you'd resort to low-key insulting OP's intelligence, rather than admit that the game could be subtley improved?

Bruh

There are a million games out there that will baby you and hold your hand.

But just because you have the memory retention of a goldfish doesn't mean the game is "unacceptable".

There's also no need to traverse areas multiple times if you just remember where things are, or don't die repeatedly to bosses.





Basically you need to git gud

[ZeroKelvin]

Yeah, the backtracking is troubling at points, especially if you're an OCD nitwit (like me) who wants to explore EVERYTHING immediately. Still, the devs went to the trouble to put together the trolleys, the shortcuts, the mobility upgrades, and the stag stations for a reason.

I didn't enjoy all the running around as much, but the rest of the game more than made up for it - certainly isn't enough reason to not recommend it.

[ZeroKelvin]

Also, I love the fact that every comment in this thread (including the original) is civil (mostly) and well-written .

[boxxer1]

If you really need to remember every spot then you can always write it down on a notepad. Later in the game though you can search an entire zone within 10 minutes anyway, so you wouldn't have to spend long searching for things really.

[Andy]

Originally posted by TreasureCat:

I'm loving Hollow Knight, I'm (I'd guess) 2/3 of the way through. The world is fascinating and the gameplay is pretty good. And also, part of me hates it. This game has no regard for the player's time whatsoever.

While I wouldn't be as ridiculously hyperbolic as you're being, I agree that the game has far too much backtracking and a rather lackluster fast travel system.
I genuinely did enjoy this game, and it's probably only one out of three or four games in the past 15 years that has given me a genuine sense of wonder, exploration and discovery. But yes, the flaws you pointed out do make the game tedious at times, and I'd guess I probably spent half my time in the game backtracking.

It's particularly frustrating because as fun and mechanically sound the gameplay is, the real joy of Hollow Knight comes from exploring new areas, but this only makes up a small portion of the time spent playing the game. After you've gone through the same area for the 20th time, it starts to get really tedious. I particularly couldn't stand going to the Ancient Basin, because of the complete lack of fast travel options, and it's an area you have to revisit multiple times and spend a lot of time going in and out of.
If there wasn't an immediate threat of dying in an area, I'd often skip benches and simply reload the game after finishing whatever task I came to do, as that was the quickest path back to where I started.

[Ale]

I think the game is just fine. Maybe I would leave the fast travel locked untill 2/3 of the main playthrough...and I would make an "hard" mod without compass and stuff like that.

Right now, I think the game is well balance in a midway between real game and modern brainless game.

[Third Strongest Bunny]

Originally posted by 4thQueen:

Bruh

There are a million games out there that will baby you and hold your hand.

But just because you have the memory retention of a goldfish doesn't mean the game is "unacceptable".

There's also no need to traverse areas multiple times if you just remember where things are, or don't die repeatedly to bosses.

Basically you need to git gud

I've sought out and beaten more than enough challenging, brutally difficult games that I don't need to prove anything to you. If you insist on posting this way, flaming like this, then I'm not going to care about your opinion. Do those of us a favor, who are actually trying to critique and improve on an otherwise great game, and go bother someone else, thanks.

[4thQueen]

Are you also planning on ignoring everyone else that disagrees with you?

I understand why you don't like the things you don't like, but I find it laughable that you think your way is "better". The developers have expressly called out Zelda 2 and Faxanadu as inspirations for this game, which in comparison are truly cryptic games. HK already provides adequate quality of life additions to the genre. I disagree that making it simpler and easier would make it better.git gud

[Third Strongest Bunny]

Originally posted by 4thQueen:

Are you also planning on ignoring everyone else that disagrees with you?

Were you referring to me? Because I'm not suggesting the game get simpler, or easier at all. I relish harder, more cryptic games, the Souls series (a clear inspiration) and Super Metroid being some of my all time favorites.

What I don't like? What I'm arguing against? Pointless tedium, a lack of simple, appropriate map features (commensurate with current game development practices), and excessive backtracking, which this game has in spades. If you can't even acknowledge this much, then I don't see how we can even have a discussion on it. They exist, as evidenced by the multitude of topics about it, most of which are presented clearly, purposefully, and without whining (a few exceptions excluded).

I've beaten many hard games. I've beaten many cryptic games. I've beaten this game. Hell, I've even beaten Zelda 2 and Faxanadu (and if they were made today, I'd leverage the same criticisms). I also know tedium when I see it. I only ignore opinions that flame for no reason, as the above poster did, since that was less disagreement, and more baiting/trolling. Disagree with me all you want, because as much as I love this game (and I do), it's a perfectly valid opinion to suggest that other games (particularly games that inspired this one) have done these particular aspects better.

But look, if you're just trying to find an argument with me, I won't go beyond this. I don't have the patience to argue about a completed video game on a forum that won't change. All I'm saying, is that OP's opinion is just is valid as anyone else's, and it's corroborated by others with similar, legitimate criticisms here. Yelling at OP, insulting him, disagreeing without a compelling argument, or especially, trying to diminish the legitimacy of these concerns, is absolutely pointless and counter-productive.