Hollow Knight

Hollow Knight

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why is the game's storry-telling so needlessly cryptic and convoluted
i played the whole game, unlocked the secret boss/ending, and i barely understood anything from what happened.
everyone keeps talking in riddles and vague hints about what's happening. absolutly not a SINGLE character explains things clearly.

even after talking to everyone i could find i still didn't know anything about like 75% of the terms and names being thrown at me.
what the hell is a wyrm? void? what is the infection? where did she come from? why do all infected talk about "the light"? what happened to the pale king? who's grimm? where did he and his troupe come from? why does everyone keep saying thy are evil? why do i need to kill all the dreamers? and so many other questions

and all of this i had to painstankingly find out from reading wiki articles and watching very long youtube videos explaining the lore.

WHY?

i know it can be fun to piece together clues to find out a bigger picture, but not when the whole damn story is hidden. there are plenty of metroidvania games that did it right, hell, METROID did it right in Fusion, Zero Mission and AM2R(even tho its not offical)
there was a main story the mission objective, and there was a hidden story that the player had to discover while playing the game

and what do we get here? NOTHING.

it's a damn shame too, because the lore really is interesting when you get to read it in a coherant matter

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Showing 1-15 of 20 comments
MADE IN IRON Jan 5, 2020 @ 5:56pm 
I think it is related to the game not being linear. You can't tell a linear story through a non linear play. So you get some hints from here and there until you get some idea of what's going on. You discover the lore the same way you discover anything in the game, bit by bit, coming and going. It's just another way to tell a story.
Nito Jan 5, 2020 @ 6:39pm 
Just go to the wiki the story telling is just like dark souls it will give you fragments of the lore and latter you gather them and make something

The infection
https://hollowknight.fandom.com/wiki/Infection


Void
https://hollowknight.fandom.com/wiki/Void

Why they consider you evil also has on the wiki but i give you a resume
The hollow knight is actually sealing the infection while the dreamers keep the entrance of the temple sealed as long as they are on that "dream" you are trying to enter the temple the reason i don't think is ever explained but one thing is clear The hollow knight is weakening and soon the infection would escape anyway (not that others remember)
Violet-111 Jan 5, 2020 @ 7:31pm 
Here's a hint: Read the hunter's journal. It flat-out says what causes the infection, and much much more.
Also, you might have missed a couple NPCs, or you might want to read their dialogue again if you didn't - Bardoon and Midwife are more hidden than some other NPCs and both have loads of lore in their dialogue. You've already met the White Lady for certain, but she is a massive lore dump, if you can understand what she's saying. You might want a dictionary for that one.
Last edited by Violet-111; Jan 5, 2020 @ 7:38pm
Phirestar Jan 6, 2020 @ 2:09am 
It makes sense that it's so vague when you consider the context:

The game taking place in a dying kingdom. Many of the creatures that live within Hallownest are either dead, infected, or incapable of communicating with each other. The few intelligent characters that you meet along the way tend to have little knowledge about the history of the kingdom, and those that do aren't likely to know most of it.

Much of the game's plot also takes place in the past, prior to the events of the game. And just like before, a majority of the bugs that were there to see it are nowhere to be found. The king himself has been implied to either have died or fled. So any clues about what happened are left in the ruins left behind. Just like you, the player, those that're around to explore Hallownest in the present day have to piece together what they're able to find.

Hollow Knight is all about uncovering secrets and exploring a strange and wonderous world. If there was someone around that could just tell you everything, it would break that sense of atmosphere.


As for the cryptic / vague dialogue, I think of two reasons:
  1. It serves as a way to further emphasize that mysterious tone that Hollow Knight conveys.

  2. The fact that there are characters that don't necessarily talk like that - Elder Bug, Cornifer / Iselda, etc. - could perhaps imply a cultural barrier of sorts. Hallownest is a fairly old civilization, and language is often different depending on the time period. Citizens of the kingdom could maybe show that difference still clinging on in the present day.
Last edited by Phirestar; Jan 6, 2020 @ 2:11am
Originally posted by MADE IN IRON:
I think it is related to the game not being linear. You can't tell a linear story through a non linear play. So you get some hints from here and there until you get some idea of what's going on. You discover the lore the same way you discover anything in the game, bit by bit, coming and going. It's just another way to tell a story.

i have no problem with none linear story telling.
I have a problem with cryptic storytelling.

90% of all characets talk gibberish if you didn't painstakingly research every word everyone say.

Yes I found bardoon. All I got from him is "something something wyrm, something pale king something something void"
Same crap woth midwife: "something something dark deal. Something something gendered child. Something wyrm.

No one told me anything I could take for face value, no one told any direct information only cryptic hints

its incredibley frustrating that I had to wiki everything instead of letting tbe game show the story. And my question is why tell a story in such a crappy way. It serves very very few people and annoys the hell out of everyone else
Jan 6, 2020 @ 2:36am 
Originally posted by Jolly Jew:
Originally posted by MADE IN IRON:
I think it is related to the game not being linear. You can't tell a linear story through a non linear play. So you get some hints from here and there until you get some idea of what's going on. You discover the lore the same way you discover anything in the game, bit by bit, coming and going. It's just another way to tell a story.

i have no problem with none linear story telling.
I have a problem with cryptic storytelling.

90% of all characets talk gibberish if you didn't painstakingly research every word everyone say.

Yes I found bardoon. All I got from him is "something something wyrm, something pale king something something void"
Same crap woth midwife: "something something dark deal. Something something gendered child. Something wyrm.

No one told me anything I could take for face value, no one told any direct information only cryptic hints

its incredibley frustrating that I had to wiki everything instead of letting tbe game show the story. And my question is why tell a story in such a crappy way. It serves very very few people and annoys the hell out of everyone else

Don't use the Wiki, it ruins the experience. It'll all make sense eventually.

Hollow Knight's world is like a puzzle, you have to construct it through different pieces of dialogue and lore points. I felt super confused for the first 5-10 hours of my first playthrough and only afterwards I started realising what was going on.

It also annoys the minority, the story-telling in this game isn't spoon-fed. You actually have to turn on your head to figure things out.
Last edited by ; Jan 6, 2020 @ 2:44am
Phirestar Jan 6, 2020 @ 2:42am 
Originally posted by Jolly Jew:
its incredibley frustrating that I had to wiki everything instead of letting tbe game show the story. And my question is why tell a story in such a crappy way. It serves very very few people and annoys the hell out of everyone else
I disagree on this statement, and I can summarize it in two words: Dark Souls.

That series has gained huge popularity not just for its gameplay, but the lore surrounding the world the games take place in. (The same goes for all of the other Soulsborne titles, too.) It really isn't as niche as you seems to be implying, when you consider that there are YouTube channels entirely built around analyzing and discussing the games' plots. And those communities can number in the hundreds of thousands, in some cases.

Cryptic storytelling has an audience, and that's why some developers design their storytelling in that manner. Some people really love having to piece together a puzzle and work it out for themselves.


Heck, Hollow Knight has its own unofficial lore channel: mossbag. Whom just recently passed 100K subscribers. Calling that "very very few people" feels like underselling it.
Im also subbed yo mossbag thays not because I love the game's incoherent story its because he was the only way I could understand it.

Prwtty sure his 100k subs is proof that most people prefer the story to be spoonfed with his videos.

I understand the appeal of piecing together the story together. But why dont thwy give me SOMETHING that I can work with alone??
Luke how the hell was I supposed to figure out alone that the gendered child is Hornet?
How the hell was I supposed to realize that wyrm is the pale king?
Whu couldn't seer just flat out say "yeah there's this mad moth god called Radiance that's the cause of the infection" that wouldnt reveal much but we would at least know what are we fighting against and what's the ultimate goal.
But Nope instead we get "erm we betrayed the light becausr we felt the wyrm to be brighter and now my tribe is dead"
Jan 6, 2020 @ 3:34am 
Originally posted by Jolly Jew:
Im also subbed yo mossbag thays not because I love the game's incoherent story its because he was the only way I could understand it.

Prwtty sure his 100k subs is proof that most people prefer the story to be spoonfed with his videos.

I understand the appeal of piecing together the story together. But why dont thwy give me SOMETHING that I can work with alone??
Luke how the hell was I supposed to figure out alone that the gendered child is Hornet?
How the hell was I supposed to realize that wyrm is the pale king?
Whu couldn't seer just flat out say "yeah there's this mad moth god called Radiance that's the cause of the infection" that wouldnt reveal much but we would at least know what are we fighting against and what's the ultimate goal.
But Nope instead we get "erm we betrayed the light becausr we felt the wyrm to be brighter and now my tribe is dead"

Games that require the use of the M I N D might not be necessarily for everyone. Comprehension is one the pre-requisites of understanding the plot in this case.

Hollow Knight gives you everything for you to work on alone. It just takes a while to understand.

Have you finished the game?

Did you read the texts that you found scattered across Hallownest?

Did you talk with the npcs?

Did you dream-nail them to learn more info?



The seer literally summarises the whole Radiance thing in one of her dialogue options by the way.



Last edited by ; Jan 6, 2020 @ 3:37am
I've finished the game with both endings listened to every npc I could find and read every sign I came across.
Still could bare make out anything besidrs the fact hollow knight is a vessel to contain the infection somehow but he failed and the infection keeps leaking out of tbe temple.
Also that the Knight you olay as might actually be the pale king or directly related to him.

Everything else i had to look up in the wiki.
Nito Jan 6, 2020 @ 11:22am 
Originally posted by Jolly Jew:
Also that the Knight you olay as might actually be the pale king or directly related to him.

Every Vessel is a son/daughter(because they are all genderless) of the Pale King and created on the abyss and the only exception i think is Hornet that is the actual Daughter of the Pale King with Herrah the Beast
Hollow Heart Jan 6, 2020 @ 8:21pm 
It is not that hard to understand the basic lore. You just need to think a little about what some characters say. You don't get the most straight forward storrytelling in this game but you also don't have to sit for hours and think about all the clues you found just to understand what exactly your character is or what is the infection.

"Why do all infected talk about "the light"?" Well maybe because their minds are controlled by The Radiance? You know that one god which seems to be made of pure LIGHT.
Anyway, you shouldn't get frustrated just because this type of storytelling isn't something you enjoy. There are plenty of games with more simple storytelling. But don't say that "a few" people like it. That is just not true.
AirborneMuffins Jan 7, 2020 @ 9:18am 
Originally posted by Jolly Jew:
Originally posted by MADE IN IRON:
I think it is related to the game not being linear. You can't tell a linear story through a non linear play. So you get some hints from here and there until you get some idea of what's going on. You discover the lore the same way you discover anything in the game, bit by bit, coming and going. It's just another way to tell a story.

i have no problem with none linear story telling.
I have a problem with cryptic storytelling.

90% of all characets talk gibberish if you didn't painstakingly research every word everyone say.

Yes I found bardoon. All I got from him is "something something wyrm, something pale king something something void"
Same crap woth midwife: "something something dark deal. Something something gendered child. Something wyrm.

No one told me anything I could take for face value, no one told any direct information only cryptic hints

its incredibley frustrating that I had to wiki everything instead of letting tbe game show the story. And my question is why tell a story in such a crappy way. It serves very very few people and annoys the hell out of everyone else

there is a good reason they are speaking gibberish. It's literally the major turn in the full storyline.
cat-blitz Sep 4, 2023 @ 9:52am 
Hollow Knight's writers muddy the waters to make them seem deeper than they are.

I had a similar experience with Eastward recently. Lovely visuals, great music, memorable atmosphere. The plot, however, is as thin as it is convoluted, and conveyed in an exasperatingly confusing way. Hollow Knight has similar virtues and flaws.

The cryptic, non-linear storytelling isn't necessarily a problem: if it has a point, a narrative that is reliant on themes and implication to carry most of its weight is no better or worse than a linear one… it just needs to be underpinned by something other than a random collection of proper nouns without any connective tissue. The writers of games like Dark Souls, Eastward, or Hollow Knight traffic in looseness of language, vagaries, and deliberate obfuscation to hide a lack of substance—one puts work into sussing out meaning and it's so frustrating when there's nothing at the bottom of the rabbit hole but a bunch of superficial, tired, hand-waved references to tropes about lost kingdoms and dead gods or whatever.

I've heard this disjointed, incoherent storytelling style be referred to as "poetic" and "puzzle-like" but, in my opinion, it just seems like a lazy mush of disconnected information which would have been hard work for the writers to string cohesively into a clearly intelligible story that would stand on its own without the need for external interpretation. So they didn't. Which is why, incidentally, a cottage industry of content creators has sprung up around big titles with obscure narratives whose entire shtick is "explaining the lore", which often entails making stuff up entirely to fill in gaps in the text that make no sense. It's apophenia at work, not solid, artful storytelling.

It's a shame, because these games are fun and good-looking, I just wish there was more to their stories than vague allusions and muddled, poorly strung together plot tidbits.
Last edited by cat-blitz; Sep 4, 2023 @ 4:05pm
sandy claws Sep 4, 2023 @ 10:43am 
it's odd to see a complaint such as this.
the op called this a "metroidvania", but excluded Castlevanias as a comparative game for being cryptic?

Originally posted by JolyJew СлаваУкраине:
i know it can be fun to piece together clues to find out a bigger picture, but not when the whole damn story is hidden. there are plenty of metroidvania games that did it right, hell, METROID did it right in Fusion, Zero Mission and AM2R(even tho its not offical)
there was a main story the mission objective, and there was a hidden story that the player had to discover while playing the game

and what do we get here? NOTHING.

there is an easy to follow "initial" story/pathing for HK, even being guided to the Dreamers and having the Temple of the Black Egg right at the start.
you may get the idea that there is more to the story than what you learn, but it's up to you to explore further to try to piece that together. it's literally what you described to another game, is it not?

i realize the last user just necroed this thread, and i won't expect you to be jumping on a reply.
Last edited by sandy claws; Sep 4, 2023 @ 10:44am
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Date Posted: Jan 5, 2020 @ 4:49pm
Posts: 20