Finally Figured out Why I Cannot Bring Myself to Keep Playing Hollow Knight...

[r3d_belmont456]

As I said in a previous post long buried now, Hollow Knight is an amazing Metroidvania that pretty much ticks all the right boxes for me as a big fan of the Genre and someone who's played just about every Metroid and Castlevania game, as well as a few other games such as Shadow Complex and Dust:an Elysian tail and practically beat them all to death... But for some reason I could not figure out why I could not find enjoyment from this game despite giving it a chance, and after watching a video critique in it's entirety about the game, it finally hit me...

Turns out that Hollow Knight, unlike all the other metroidvania games I've played, has the Worst Pacing/Progression hands down... What I mean by this is that, unlike something like Metroid or even some of the Metroidvania roguelites in steam, the upgrades you aquire are so far and few between that for a very long time it feels as tho you are making no progress at all, which is not helped at all by how revealing the map works on top of this game being heavily combat focused, which is usually the opposite of what I do in this type of game (ignoring combat and exploring areas quickly).

So not only was I playing this game pretty much incorrectly on my 1st playthrough, but all of what I normally expect out of a game like this was pretty much let down. What I mean by this is that not only was there almost no sensory overload from getting new items due to exploration alone, but the time between discoveries was so vast that until I saw the critique, I did not realize how far apart the double jump was from when you begin (hell, even the very first nail upgrade doens't happen until you obtain the double jump/dash, which if you're me you ended up lost in the deepnest without a lantern way before getting to that point...).

So what would I do to change this?... honestly... nothing... I really would hate it if the devs made this game a lot more like a traditional metroidvania for the sake of proper pacing which would just ruin it for the players that enjoy Hollow Knight for what it is... Sadly, it just isn't for me, despite the game getting way better many many hours in once you're headed in the right direction...

For those of you curious about the critique, I'll leave the link for it down below... I personally found it very good and would recommend anyone wondering why they can't bring themselves to like this game, despite being a hardcore metroidvania fan a watch. Be warned however, it contains heavy spoilers so watch at your own risk if you hate spoilers...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t1mxoMIDfY

[Darc Vader]

That make perfect sense. I've seen so many people struggling to get through the beginning of the game because of just how limited you are before you get the dash. Even then, you get the wall jump pretty soon after that, but because there are really only 6 or so major movement upgrades in the game (dash, wall jump, crystal heart, double jump, Isma's Tear, and shade cloak and the last two of those are less interactive and just an upgrade to a previous ability respectively) combined with how expansive the map is, there are long stretches where instead of you that changes, it's the world around you.

Having played a few other metroivanias, I've noticed you tend to get abilities very often: In the Metroid series you get a beam upgrade, a new weapon, or a new utility option from nearly every boss; In Ori, you usually get a new move in each area and the area is built to get you used to it; in Dust (no spoilers please, haven't finished it yet) you get new movement options fairly often and a new attack after each major boss. Hollow Knight has so many bosses, but the majority of them give something smaller like a mask or vessel fragment (not even a whole upgrade) or a charm which you may not even use at all. Even then some of the ones that do give you something more substantial aren't even required, like the Soul Master, meaning that you are rarely getting gamechanging upgrade.

I'm not saying it's a bad system, Hollow Knight is one of my all time favourite games, but I can see why that would turn someone away who is more used to the typical progression of a Meroidvania.

[r3d_belmont456]

Originally posted by Darc Vader:

That make perfect sense. I've seen so many people struggling to get through the beginning of the game because of just how limited you are before you get the dash. Even then, you get the wall jump pretty soon after that, but because there are really only 6 or so major movement upgrades in the game (dash, wall jump, crystal heart, double jump, Isma's Tear, and shade cloak and the last two of those are less interactive and just an upgrade to a previous ability respectively) combined with how expansive the map is, there are long stretches where instead of you that changes, it's the world around you.

Having played a few other metroivanias, I've noticed you tend to get abilities very often: In the Metroid series you get a beam upgrade, a new weapon, or a new utility option from nearly every boss; In Ori, you usually get a new move in each area and the area is built to get you used to it; in Dust (no spoilers please, haven't finished it yet) you get new movement options fairly often and a new attack after each major boss. Hollow Knight has so many bosses, but the majority of them give something smaller like a mask or vessel fragment (not even a whole upgrade) or a charm which you may not even use at all. Even then some of the ones that do give you something more substantial aren't even required, like the Soul Master, meaning that you are rarely getting gamechanging upgrade.

I'm not saying it's a bad system, Hollow Knight is one of my all time favourite games, but I can see why that would turn someone away who is more used to the typical progression of a Meroidvania.

Take my word for it, Dust is short enough to finish and definitely worth it just to see the ending... But I digress. But yeah, I guess I'm so used to feeling like I am making progress that when I play a game like this, where progression feels heavily stifled early on, it just gets a tad disheartening to continue, perhaps i've just been too spoiled by traditional metroidvanias... but at the very least hollow knight is an amazing game and has tons to offer for just 15 bucks which is great.

Ironically, this is probably also why I only ended up playing through Samus Returns once, because unlike previous games, this one had a much heavier emphasis on combat which tended to slow the pace down of the game considerably which was an unfortunate turn off for me. I do make exceptions sometimes tho, like the Prime series for example, mainly because it's an FPS and the combat is very solid in it (can be largely ignored later on as well), on top of some of the boss fights being mind blowing. This is especially true if you played through the prime trilogy where you can manually aim her arm cannon with the wiimote which added so much immersion, it was crazy how much of a difference it made...

[Darc Vader]

Originally posted by red_belmont456:

Take my word for it, Dust is short enough to finish and definitely worth it just to see the ending... But I digress. But yeah, I guess I'm so used to feeling like I am making progress that when I play a game like this, where progression feels heavily stifled early on, it just gets a tad disheartening to continue, perhaps i've just been too spoiled by traditional metroidvanias... but at the very least hollow knight is an amazing game and has tons to offer for just 15 bucks which is great.

Ironically, this is probably also why I only ended up playing through Samus Returns once, because unlike previous games, this one had a much heavier emphasis on combat which tended to slow the pace down of the game considerably which was an unfortunate turn off for me. I do make exceptions sometimes tho, like the Prime series for example, mainly because it's an FPS and the combat is very solid in it (can be largely ignored later on as well), on top of some of the boss fights being mind blowing. This is especially true if you played through the prime trilogy where you can manually aim her arm cannon with the wiimote which added so much immersion, it was crazy how much of a difference it made...

Oh I’m currently sitting at 90% completion of Dust, that’s why I didn’t want spoilers. And I felt mostly the same when it comes to both Returns (though for me it’s the linearity that puts me off replaying) and the Prime Trilogy (which I played all of on Wii, can’t imagine how it controls with a single stick)

Edit: something I think should be said about how Hollow Knight handles its upgrades is that it allows much more freedom in how you choose to progress. Prime for example has a lot of places where you just can’t proceed at all until you find the specific ability and can continue. Hollow Knight lets you turn around and explore a completely different path and come back later. Instead of saying “too bad you need Isma’s Tear to go any farther”, Hollow Knight says “you could go find Isma’s Tear and go this way, but why don’t you go check out the Ancient Basin or Deepnest instead”.

[r3d_belmont456]

I honestly don't have a problem with freedom of exploration at all. In fact, this was one of the biggest reasons I loved Link between Worlds and Breath of the Wild... But I guess as I said before, the way this game handles backtracking and revealing the maps just didn't sit right with me, on top of all the grinding it feels you gotta do early on with geo to buy key items...

[Darc Vader]

That's fair, I enjoyed the map system for it's uniqueness and how it makes you actually learn the maps before you can see them, but the issue with geo is one of my biggest gripes with the game. Geo is at a premium early game, but becomes near irrelevant about a third of the way through and stays that way until end game where you dump it all into the unbreakable charms (and they're wholly unnecessary in Steel Soul)

[elitezrule]

i got the double jump then killed the mantis lords and i had alredy explored the crystal peak and gotten the super dash i wanted to explore more than anything so i guess thats why other people had pacing issues and not me i guess team cherry wanted people to explore more than fight bosses like the mantis lords

[Raigavin]

When I first started the game, the first hour seemed exceptionally slow with limited moves, no map and not much additions to the basic combat. The game during that phase seemed like a static linear platformer and I just feel it was going to be an OK game accompanied by excellent audio (music and sound effects).

But I realised I was wrong after an hour and more, the game is awesome (except the white palace level design of course).

Now when I look back at the first hour of my game, I come to appreciate its seemingly dull beginnings.

[DJDiceZ]

Well, if that's how you felt, fair, i respect your opinion, but i can't relate. I always felt like i had too much to do, new things to explore (that's a type of progression), and never felt stuck or that the pacing slowed down. There's more than abilities to progression.