[Feedback] Nightmare King Grimm

[Fuzzy.Bunny]

NB I am taking the time to update/edit this several days after beating Nightmare King Grimm for the sake of clarity. In an effort to not come across as disingenuous, however strongly I hold my criticism of the Nightmare King Grimm fight, I am preserving text I would normally remove as 'struck text'.

It took 2.5 hours for me to beat the boss and when I was done my nerves were shot and it was an experience unlike any I have encountered before, where I was required not simply to skill up progressively but to make a dramatic leap upward in skill because the game did not train me as a player. After plowing through both God Eater and the aptly named Hollow Knight, my commentary in that regard still stands: the fight is poorly designed, as there is (a) no other boss or combat sequence approaching that level of difficulty in the game, viz. the game does not do nearly enough to prepare the player for that fight, (b) there are too few builds, and (c) overcoming the challenge does not make the victory sweeter or more appropriate.

With that said, I was wrong to say that I would feel no pride or accomplishment in defeating Nightmare King Grimm. The fight pushed me to the edge of my skillset in a way that no other fight in any other game has done and, now, I cannot look back and say 'well, you beat Laurence, the First Vicar, so you can do this' but, instead, must say 'well, you beat Nightmare King Grimm: you know you can do this.'

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1442367542

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1442436749




The Nightmare King Grimm fight has sapped what enjoyment I was able to receive from the game. After fighting every boss outside of Hollow Knight,* The Radiance, God Tamer, and Nightmare King Grimm, I think that I can legitimately offer feedback to add to the pile.

The fight is badly designed, from the ground up, for the following reasons which should be taken together:

(1) The player loses 2 Charm Notches to the Grimmkin Child because it must be equipped to start the fight.

If we presume that the player has the maximum amount of Charm Notchs, the player is then left with 9 Notches to make a build. Given the length of the fight and general inability to generate Soul for numerous reasons that genuinely need not be delved into, a Spell build is not viable but lucky and, as such, cannot be considered. This means that players are using a nail build of some sort with Unbreakable Strength and Longnail/Mark of Pride at its core. Players seem to be locked into 7-8 Notches. However, practically speaking, the player is locked into 9 Notches and zero options, as Grimmkin Child (requirement), Unbreakable Strength (shortens number of boss hits), Longnail (requirement to deal consistent hits and avoid contact damage), Sharp Shadow (shortens number of boss hits), and Dashmaster (shortens number of boss hits with Sharp Shadow and allows avoidance of fire trail on Grimm's dash) is the most effective way to fight the boss without relying on luck. Mono-build bosses are bad design.

(Important to note here is that Nail Arts are not considered as they are not only too high risk but rely on the boss being still in the right way and long enough to utilise the Nail Art. Waiting to be able to use a jumping charged attack when Nightmare King Grimm is summoning flame pillars is a bridge too far to be worthy of consideration.)

(2) The player cannot meaningfully generate Soul in the boss fight.

Given the speed and random positioning of Nightmare King Grimm, the inability to generate Soul via Sharp Shadow, and the ability to only get one or two hits at a time, the player cannot generate Soul in such a way to recover. Since the player cannot afford to devote Charm Notches to extra health and a well known bug prevents some players (like me) from receiving a 9th Mask, the player can only take 4 hits from Nightmare King Grimm and has no real time to heal. This puts the fight at the razor's edge of concentration that is at once incomparable to the 1st fight with Grimm and the fight with The Radiance, given the work required to unlock both fights are drastically different in terms of difficulty. Simply put, as the player cannot meaningfully generate Soul and can only take 5 non-bugged hits, the fight has too thin a margin of error to be good but very difficult design.

(3) Genuinely random attacks, with only 1 attack having a trigger.

Nightmare King Grimm can continually use the dash-to-uppercut-to-fire (or to-fire-to-thorns), downward strike-to-dash (or to-dash-to-uppercut), or fire bats attack several times in a row and irrespective of player feedback. This means it does not matter how or where the player moves/attacks, the boss will simply go through a random series of attacks outside of 'bullet hell', 'bat', and 'proximity disappearance' triggers. The only attack the player can meaningfully affect is forcing the boss to move when casting fire bats, otherwise the player is simply forced to go through runs of very bad luck. Given the severe damage inflicted by any attack and the amount of the screen each attack takes up vis-a-vis the player's ability to move, the inability to predict attacks is a glaring problem.

(4) The boss is too mobile, both in speed and in distance.

The arena is effectively 1.25-1.5 screens and the boss is easily able to clear half of that distance with any given dashing attack, while the player can only clear one-third of the screen with Dashmaster and Shade Cloak is only useable every 1.5 seconds. Further compounding this problem is the length of flame on Nightmare King Grimm's dash and the duration of its existence, leaving the player an incredibly slim margin of error to avoid the fire (by virtually just a hair) and no way to 'shadow dash' through it if Shade Cloak was used to dash through the boss. Added to this is the serious issue of input lag with the Unity engine, something that effectively brute forcing higher frame rates does not mitigate in a fight of this nature, viz. the speed of the boss will see any number of dash animations not begin at the appropriate time and force the player to take damage.

(5) Enemy damage/health relative to player damage/health.

Nightmare King Grimm has 1500 health and, given the scenario presented with the build above and presuming the player has the Pure Nail, the player must hit the boss with a combination of nail attacks and Sharp Shadow a total of 49 times** to defeat the boss. The boss, however, must only hit the player 4-5 times in order to defeat the player. The disparity is stark: the boss hits the player for 20-25%/strike and the player hits the boss for 2%/strike, with the player unable to meanigfully heal during combat. This understandably thin margin of error turns jaw-dropping once the items in this feedback and the 16th Mask Piece bug is considered.

(6) The player cannot pogo or parry.

Given the fact that Nightmare King Grimm is immune to damage during 'bullet hell', attacks with an uppercut to finish dashes or disappears, disappears during the flame bat attack, and is easier to strike with regular jumping attacks during the flame pillar attack, the player is unable to pogo for quick, successive damage at any point in the fight. Further, the needlessly hidden parry mechanic is unable to be utilised on 'bullet hell' balls, fire bats, dashing attacks, or uppercuts. This means the player can neither attack in quick succession (Quick Slash takes too many slots to see use) nor defend themselves from boss attacks outside of movement.

(7) Cannot keep Soul gained between fights.

Despite what the Hollow Knight wikia claims, players that lose a Dream battle return with full health and zero Soul. This means that players seeking to use Soul must go out and farm it up or seek a Hot Spring between every attempt at Nightmare King Grimm.



From the above it is clear that the player is encountering a boss that (a) nothing in the game outside of, perhaps, The Radiance has prepared them for, (b) is incomparable to the 1st version of its own fight (cf. Dream Bosses), (c) all but forces 1 build which takes away effectively 20% of the player's Charm Notches, and (d) is incomparably stronger to the player vis-a-vis any other boss in the game, where the player cannot (e) meaningfully generate Soul to attack at range or heal, and (f) defend themselves outside of having the preternatural skill/luck to not be in the way given the speed and size of boss attacks.

This is the sort of glaringly bad design that we see in the SoulsBorne series, introduced with Artorias of the Abyss, where bosses are simply faster, with larger hurt boxes, more health, more damage, and a larger set of moves with fewer ways to differentiate tells in any number of cases. Such design is a bad one to ape and I am only so glad that it is, in my experience, confined to Nightmare King Grimm.

I am proud to say that I beat Demon's Souls without dying (without a health tank build), stuck in there to beat Laurence, the First Vicar solo, that I defeated Dark Lurker without a health tank build, and that I finished the boss gauntlet in Shovel Knight on my first go of it...but I would not feel the same if/when I beat Nightmare King Grimm.

_____
* Given that DLC is integrated into the game, much like Dark Souls: Artorias of the Abyss, I decided to do all the DLC content before finishing my first run.

**31.5 damage for each nail/Sharp Shadow strike, rounded down to 31, and 48.38 times-to-hit, rounded up to 49.

[Krispy]

if you dont like the fight thats on you. I love the fight and found it to be a great test of skill after completing most of the game. Theres a reason optional content is optional

[Fuzzy.Bunny]

Originally posted by Krispy:

if you dont like the fight thats on you. I love the fight and found it to be a great test of skill after completing most of the game. Theres a reason optional content is optional

This is a good example of missing the point willingly and in grand fashion.

Two points.

First, I gave very clear feedback, examining various points and showing how they related to one another in order to make my case for poor design.

Second, subjective and objective are real things. Simply because something is liked or disliked does not make it good or bad. You like the fight, which is great for you, but I do not like the fight, which is unfortunate for me. The difference here is that I am claiming it is objectively a bad fight, viz. it is bad irrespective of whether it is liked, and offering evidence to prove that point.

When it comes down to brass tacks, either meaningfully engage the feedback given or remain silent. What either of us likes is irrelevant in the face of argument over whether or not a given thing is objectively good.

I will engage this no further.

[GaussTheWizard]

Difficulty is part of the game, my man.

[Krispy]

Originally posted by Iz.Blankie:

Originally posted by Krispy:

if you dont like the fight thats on you. I love the fight and found it to be a great test of skill after completing most of the game. Theres a reason optional content is optional

This is a good example of missing the point willingly and in grand fashion.

Two points.

First, I gave very clear feedback, examining various points and showing how they related to one another in order to make my case for poor design.

Second, subjective and objective are real things. Simply because something is liked or disliked does not make it good or bad. You like the fight, which is great for you, but I do not like the fight, which is unfortunate for me. The difference here is that I am claiming it is objectively a bad fight, viz. it is bad irrespective of whether it is liked, and offering evidence to prove that point.

When it comes down to brass tacks, either meaningfully engage the feedback given or remain silent. What either of us likes is irrelevant in the face of argument over whether or not a given thing is objectively good.

I will engage this no further.

its objectivly good because they give you dozens of bossfights leading up to this building on the mechanics of the game, even giving you a teaser with the normal Grimm before you fight the nightmare version. Its a great fight because it heavly tests a persons skill and knowledge of the mechanics. People have done this fight with the unupgraded nail taking no damage, so you cant say its a bad fight mechanicly.
If you are bad at the boss and have a hard time again thats on you, but to say the boss is objectivly bad when all the complaints you have are personal ones about how you cant manage the fight is ridiculous, I dont want to be toxic but at this poinbt just git gud or move on, the boss kicked your ass so stop being salty about it

[Eklipser]

For me it seems that you might have bugged game/issues with computer. There should be no input lag at any point in the game and all controls should give reaction in game instantly. That would be the only problem with NKG for you because any time lost on lag in this fight makes it truly immpossible. But if it is not fault on computer's side then.....
Well, I can only summon famous Hornet's words before any hard fight "Get good!". Because when there is no technical problem with game itself, every single point you made (except 9 notches, that't can't be bypassed) can be stupidly easy to disprove.

[Hedrack]

https://youtu.be/0Fn_n7doA2A

Nightmare King Grimm can be done with the old nail only and no charms. No luck involved. The entire fight is learning the tells for his five random attacks and dodging them while getting 1-2 hits in (or just damaging him on the easier attacks). I grant you that he's fast - that's why he's hard. But once you know what his attacks are and what the tells are speed is all that's left to male it challenging.

Point 1 was changed in Lifeblood. I agree that folks doing it for the first time should have all their notches, but that's not really a bad design point.

Point 2 has plenty means of building soul by hitting him 1-2 times while dodging his attacks (even more with fire pillars).

For point 6, you can parry his dash. It's just difficult. But you can pogo him with the dash (or dash away, or walk away) and pogo when he dives.

For point 3, each move has a tell. Halfway in the air? Flame pillars. Top of the room? Diving. Far away and opening his cape? Fire bats. Nearby? Going to dash. Fire bats and dash I sometimes mix up, but the entire fight is learning those patterns and dealing with three puffer fish phases.

You can also heal two masks easily during the stagger. If you use Quick Focus some more opportunities are opened. I know some folks paired Quick Focus plus Shape of Inn for mobile healing. Some used Joni's (including myself for my first kill) if looking for healing opportunities is a challenge.

I have no doubt if you've beaten other challenging games you can do this. Don't give up and good luck!

[Kanra]

(1)

The Grimmchild requirement was added fairly recently, for what I presume to be story-related reasons. While a handicap, given that Grimmchild doesn't join you in the fight (again, for story-related reasons), it does not mean there is a single build that works on the boss. There are plenty of examples out there of different people having different builds work out for them. This boss is specifically made so that you can use whatever build you as a player are comfortable with, and not something to be "cheesed" like some other bosses out there.

Besides the typical nail charms for damage or range, a lot of people choose to go for health builds instead, and there are even a few successful spell builds out there. On top of that, it's possible to even make use of charms like Shape of Unn for increased healing opportunities, as well as making use of nail arts to deal more damage given that you can't get too many hits in at once.

Speaking of nail arts, they are infact viable and can be used for 4 of his attacks, even though they're riskier for some of them.


(2)

Before I go into anything else I want to say that his positioning is not random. NKG is the most straightforward boss in this game and has set positioning for every single one of his moves, which is why I was able to make this guide to begin with:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1345604152

Generating soul can be made easier with charms, but I'm sure you knew that already. As for healing opportunities during the fight, there are 5 different ones and it's possible to heal at normal speed during all of them, with maybe one or two being slightly riskier than if Quick Focus was used.

I assume the mask shard bug you're talking about is the one where you die at the same time as Brooding Mawlek. If so, this has supposedly been fixed on the Switch recently (making it so that players that were affected by this before the patch can get their mask aswell), so it should only be a matter of time until the patch comes over here.


(3)

The attacks themselves are random, however that doesn't mean the player's movements are irrelevant. Poor reaction time can, infact, be worked around by simply sticking around the middle and moving away from the boss every time he appears on the screen (obviously this is different in the case of bullet hell, but that attack isn't random to begin with). I've even further detailed this aspect in the general section of the guide mentioned above.


(4)

The point of the flames left behind by his dash is not to dash through them, but to jump over them. The attack as a whole can be avoided both if you dash towards the boss in the beginning or simply jump over him after the dive. Infact, you can dodge the entire move by standing still and double jumping.

As far as the input lag is concerned, that seems to be a specific case rather than a general one, where some users don't experience it at all, some experience it sometimes, some can alter settings to remove it, and some are unfortunately stuck with it.


(5)

This is the case with every single boss. It's fairly common for boss enemies to have a much higher health pool than the player and take less hits to kill the player than the player takes to kill the boss. Keep in mind that the boss can't heal and you can, once again, in 5 different situations.


(6)

Right, this is the point where I really feel I need to clear up some misunderstandings.

For one, Grimm isn't entirely immune to damage during bullet hell. Spells do, still, deal damage, although you would probably dismiss this as you don't consider spells worth it. However, there is a particular case where this becomes useful. Bullet hell can be avoided entirely by pogoing at the top. While this doesn't deal damage at that time, it's possible to deal a good amount of damage at the end of the attack by using Descending Dark, facing absolutely no risk of taking damage and dealing some in a seemingly impossible case. You could also shoot spells at him from the ground, but that's where risk comes in.

Besides that, you can pogo on him when he dives, making it possible to deal two hits during that attack instead of one, although this requires quick movement. As for parrying being impossible, I simply ask you to check number 4 in the Uppercut section of the guide.


(7)

This is the one point I'd have to agree with. I personally chose to adapt to having no soul instead of continuously moving back and forth between the bench and the fight. If anything, it teaches you to concentrate a bit more, at the very least.


As for your other points:

The game does prepare you for this fight slightly, in the same way the early game large enemies prepare you for the False Knight. The enemies you encounter during the flame collecting quest have similar attacks, and the first version of Grimm doesn't differ much in the patterns. If the game used the exact same patterns to prepare you for this, then the boss would have no meaning anymore.

I believe I've already explained the other points above.

[khandha]

Sharp Shadow is not needed at all and Dashmaster is a liability since you can accidently dash down. I used Quickslash, Unbreakable Strength, and Mark of Pride. If you really want easy mode just use Weaversong, Grubsong, Sprintmaster (this makes the weavers give you soul and move faster), Quick Focus and Shape of Unn (for easier healing).

All of his attacks are telegraphed, you just need to learn them and react faster. People can beat him consistantly over and over so it's not random luck that lets you beat him, it's skill.

Always stay near the center of the arena because this gives you more room to move away from his attacks instead of having to dash through him. You can easily get 1-2 hits during his bats: wait for the first bottom bat, jump a little and dash down the middle toward Grimm to attack him. 1-2 during the fire pillars: wait until the fire shows bellow you then move toward Grimm just enough to dodge and on the 4th pillar jump and attack Grimm. 1 during his fire dash: jump, pogo, dash. 1 during his uppercut: dash away from Grimm so you're just out of range of his forward movement, attack as he jumps up (you're also safe there from the fire that drops). If you need to heal you can when he staggers and if you use Focus+Unn you can during his cloak spikes and fire pillars too.

The reason the health gap is so large is because it's meant to force you to be skilled to beat him instead of using an attack or mask charm build and just face tanking him down like you can with some other bosses.

Finally, get Salubra's Blessing and you can get soul by resting at the bench right outside.

It took me hours of practice but now I can beat him every time without healing at all. Keep at it and you'll get there

[Epic_Caesura]

Originally posted by Iz.Blankie:

What either of us likes is irrelevant in the face of argument over whether or not a given thing is objectively good.

It's a video game. It's entertainment. People enjoying it is literally the only relevant thing.

But, objectively, many of the factors you describe are incorrect or incomplete. For example, there are in fact very few actual random elements, (and they do not meaningfully increase difficulty), and it is quite easy to generate soul (and use it to heal). Your math on the damage ratios also ignores that it is possible to hit Grimm three or four times (sometimes more) in most of his attack cycles, while most of his attacks can hit you only once (and the ones that hit multiple times are the easiest to avoid).

Grimm telegraphs his attacks just like every other boss (more than many, actually), and every one of his attacks can be avoided entirely. If you are not beating him, it's either because you are not familiar enough with his attacks, or because you are not fast enough. That's it -- those are the reasons.

[Krispy]

Originally posted by Kanra:

(1)

The Grimmchild requirement was added fairly recently, for what I presume to be story-related reasons. While a handicap, given that Grimmchild doesn't join you in the fight (again, for story-related reasons), it does not mean there is a single build that works on the boss. There are plenty of examples out there of different people having different builds work out for them. This boss is specifically made so that you can use whatever build you as a player are comfortable with, and not something to be "cheesed" like some other bosses out there.

Besides the typical nail charms for damage or range, a lot of people choose to go for health builds instead, and there are even a few successful spell builds out there. On top of that, it's possible to even make use of charms like Shape of Unn for increased healing opportunities, as well as making use of nail arts to deal more damage given that you can't get too many hits in at once.

Speaking of nail arts, they are infact viable and can be used for 4 of his attacks, even though they're riskier for some of them.


(2)

Before I go into anything else I want to say that his positioning is not random. NKG is the most straightforward boss in this game and has set positioning for every single one of his moves, which is why I was able to make this guide to begin with:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1345604152

Generating soul can be made easier with charms, but I'm sure you knew that already. As for healing opportunities during the fight, there are 5 different ones and it's possible to heal at normal speed during all of them, with maybe one or two being slightly riskier than if Quick Focus was used.

I assume the mask shard bug you're talking about is the one where you die at the same time as Brooding Mawlek. If so, this has supposedly been fixed on the Switch recently (making it so that players that were affected by this before the patch can get their mask aswell), so it should only be a matter of time until the patch comes over here.


(3)

The attacks themselves are random, however that doesn't mean the player's movements are irrelevant. Poor reaction time can, infact, be worked around by simply sticking around the middle and moving away from the boss every time he appears on the screen (obviously this is different in the case of bullet hell, but that attack isn't random to begin with). I've even further detailed this aspect in the general section of the guide mentioned above.


(4)

The point of the flames left behind by his dash is not to dash through them, but to jump over them. The attack as a whole can be avoided both if you dash towards the boss in the beginning or simply jump over him after the dive. Infact, you can dodge the entire move by standing still and double jumping.

As far as the input lag is concerned, that seems to be a specific case rather than a general one, where some users don't experience it at all, some experience it sometimes, some can alter settings to remove it, and some are unfortunately stuck with it.


(5)

This is the case with every single boss. It's fairly common for boss enemies to have a much higher health pool than the player and take less hits to kill the player than the player takes to kill the boss. Keep in mind that the boss can't heal and you can, once again, in 5 different situations.


(6)

Right, this is the point where I really feel I need to clear up some misunderstandings.

For one, Grimm isn't entirely immune to damage during bullet hell. Spells do, still, deal damage, although you would probably dismiss this as you don't consider spells worth it. However, there is a particular case where this becomes useful. Bullet hell can be avoided entirely by pogoing at the top. While this doesn't deal damage at that time, it's possible to deal a good amount of damage at the end of the attack by using Descending Dark, facing absolutely no risk of taking damage and dealing some in a seemingly impossible case. You could also shoot spells at him from the ground, but that's where risk comes in.

Besides that, you can pogo on him when he dives, making it possible to deal two hits during that attack instead of one, although this requires quick movement. As for parrying being impossible, I simply ask you to check number 4 in the Uppercut section of the guide.


(7)

This is the one point I'd have to agree with. I personally chose to adapt to having no soul instead of continuously moving back and forth between the bench and the fight. If anything, it teaches you to concentrate a bit more, at the very least.


As for your other points:

The game does prepare you for this fight slightly, in the same way the early game large enemies prepare you for the False Knight. The enemies you encounter during the flame collecting quest have similar attacks, and the first version of Grimm doesn't differ much in the patterns. If the game used the exact same patterns to prepare you for this, then the boss would have no meaning anymore.

I believe I've already explained the other points above.

thank you for putting into words what I was trying to explain lol, +1

[arejang]

Originally posted by Epic_Caesura:

It's a video game. It's entertainment. People enjoying it is literally the only relevant thing.

Basically this. What's "objectively" good or not (two terms which logically do not go together, by the way) matters little as long as the person playing the game is having fun. Sure, not every person is going to enjoy this boss fight, but plenty do as evidenced by the numerous posts that disagree with you.

It's been a while since I played this game, but I don't really recall a single boss in the game that couldn't be approached systematically. You spent a lot of time and thought into your post, so I don't want to dismiss it outright, but outside of the pufferfish attack, every single projectile, every move the boss makes is clearly telegraphed the follow-up once an attack begins is entirely predictable for the remainder of that attack. He is fast, so you need to be on your toes, but once you know what attack the boss is going for, the rest is just executing the same dodge pattern and counterattack if you can. It's practically a game of call and response, lol.

[arejang]

HK has been my gateway drug into difficult games, and after beating the likes of this game, Cuphead, and Celeste now, I found the approach is everything. I see all difficult but fair levels the same as a difficult math problem or a difficult test question. They have answers and the game developers are just asking you what they are. Once you have the "answer" down, it's just a matter of providing it every time the question is asked.

[Kyfa]

Originally posted by Iz.Blankie:

The Nightmare King Grimm fight has sapped what enjoyment I was able to receive from the game. After fighting every boss outside of Hollow Knight,* The Radiance, God Tamer, and Nightmare King Grimm, I think that I can legitimately offer feedback to add to the pile.

The fight is badly designed, from the ground up, for the following reasons which should be taken together:

(1) The player loses 2 Charm Notches to the Grimmkin Child because it must be equipped to start the fight.

If we presume that the player has the maximum amount of Charm Notchs, the player is then left with 9 Notches to make a build. Given the length of the fight and general inability to generate Soul for numerous reasons that genuinely need not be delved into, a Spell build is not viable but lucky and, as such, cannot be considered. This means that players are using a nail build of some sort with Unbreakable Strength and Longnail/Mark of Pride at its core. Players seem to be locked into 7-8 Notches. However, practically speaking, the player is locked into 9 Notches and zero options, as Grimmkin Child (requirement), Unbreakable Strength (shortens number of boss hits), Longnail (requirement to deal consistent hits and avoid contact damage), Sharp Shadow (shortens number of boss hits), and Dashmaster (shortens number of boss hits with Sharp Shadow and allows avoidance of fire trail on Grimm's dash) is the most effective way to fight the boss without relying on luck. Mono-build bosses are bad design.

(Important to note here is that Nail Arts are not considered as they are not only too high risk but rely on the boss being still in the right way and long enough to utilise the Nail Art. Waiting to be able to use a jumping charged attack when Nightmare King Grimm is summoning flame pillars is a bridge too far to be worthy of consideration.)

(2) The player cannot meaningfully generate Soul in the boss fight.

Given the speed and random positioning of Nightmare King Grimm, the inability to generate Soul via Sharp Shadow, and the ability to only get one or two hits at a time, the player cannot generate Soul in such a way to recover. Since the player cannot afford to devote Charm Notches to extra health and a well known bug prevents some players (like me) from receiving a 9th Mask, the player can only take 4 hits from Nightmare King Grimm and has no real time to heal. This puts the fight at the razor's edge of concentration that is at once incomparable to the 1st fight with Grimm and the fight with The Radiance, given the work required to unlock both fights are drastically different in terms of difficulty. Simply put, as the player cannot meaningfully generate Soul and can only take 5 non-bugged hits, the fight has too thin a margin of error to be good but very difficult design.

(3) Genuinely random attacks, with only 1 attack having a trigger.

Nightmare King Grimm can continually use the dash-to-uppercut-to-fire (or to-fire-to-thorns), downward strike-to-dash (or to-dash-to-uppercut), or fire bats attack several times in a row and irrespective of player feedback. This means it does not matter how or where the player moves/attacks, the boss will simply go through a random series of attacks outside of 'bullet hell', 'bat', and 'proximity disappearance' triggers. The only attack the player can meaningfully affect is forcing the boss to move when casting fire bats, otherwise the player is simply forced to go through runs of very bad luck. Given the severe damage inflicted by any attack and the amount of the screen each attack takes up vis-a-vis the player's ability to move, the inability to predict attacks is a glaring problem.

(4) The boss is too mobile, both in speed and in distance.

The arena is effectively 1.25-1.5 screens and the boss is easily able to clear half of that distance with any given dashing attack, while the player can only clear one-third of the screen with Dashmaster and Shade Cloak is only useable every 1.5 seconds. Further compounding this problem is the length of flame on Nightmare King Grimm's dash and the duration of its existence, leaving the player an incredibly slim margin of error to avoid the fire (by virtually just a hair) and no way to 'shadow dash' through it if Shade Cloak was used to dash through the boss. Added to this is the serious issue of input lag with the Unity engine, something that effectively brute forcing higher frame rates does not mitigate in a fight of this nature, viz. the speed of the boss will see any number of dash animations not begin at the appropriate time and force the player to take damage.

(5) Enemy damage/health relative to player damage/health.

Nightmare King Grimm has 1500 health and, given the scenario presented with the build above and presuming the player has the Pure Nail, the player must hit the boss with a combination of nail attacks and Sharp Shadow a total of 49 times** to defeat the boss. The boss, however, must only hit the player 4-5 times in order to defeat the player. The disparity is stark: the boss hits the player for 20-25%/strike and the player hits the boss for 2%/strike, with the player unable to meanigfully heal during combat. This understandably thin margin of error turns jaw-dropping once the items in this feedback and the 16th Mask Piece bug is considered.

(6) The player cannot pogo or parry.

Given the fact that Nightmare King Grimm is immune to damage during 'bullet hell', attacks with an uppercut to finish dashes or disappears, disappears during the flame bat attack, and is easier to strike with regular jumping attacks during the flame pillar attack, the player is unable to pogo for quick, successive damage at any point in the fight. Further, the needlessly hidden parry mechanic is unable to be utilised on 'bullet hell' balls, fire bats, dashing attacks, or uppercuts. This means the player can neither attack in quick succession (Quick Slash takes too many slots to see use) nor defend themselves from boss attacks outside of movement.

(7) Cannot keep Soul gained between fights.

Despite what the Hollow Knight wikia claims, players that lose a Dream battle return with full health and zero Soul. This means that players seeking to use Soul must go out and farm it up or seek a Hot Spring between every attempt at Nightmare King Grimm.



From the above it is clear that the player is encountering a boss that (a) nothing in the game outside of, perhaps, The Radiance has prepared them for, (b) is incomparable to the 1st version of its own fight (cf. Dream Bosses), (c) all but forces 1 build which takes away effectively 20% of the player's Charm Notches, and (d) is incomparably stronger to the player vis-a-vis any other boss in the game, where the player cannot (e) meaningfully generate Soul to attack at range or heal, and (f) defend themselves outside of having the preternatural skill/luck to not be in the way given the speed and size of boss attacks.

This is the sort of glaringly bad design that we see in the SoulsBorne series, introduced with Artorias of the Abyss, where bosses are simply faster, with larger hurt boxes, more health, more damage, and a larger set of moves with fewer ways to differentiate tells in any number of cases. Such design is a bad one to ape and I am only so glad that it is, in my experience, confined to Nightmare King Grimm.

I am proud to say that I beat Demon's Souls without dying (without a health tank build), stuck in there to beat Laurence, the First Vicar solo, that I defeated Dark Lurker without a health tank build, and that I finished the boss gauntlet in Shovel Knight on my first go of it...but I would not feel the same if/when I beat Nightmare King Grimm.

_____
* Given that DLC is integrated into the game, much like Dark Souls: Artorias of the Abyss, I decided to do all the DLC content before finishing my first run.

**31.5 damage for each nail/Sharp Shadow strike, rounded down to 31, and 48.38 times-to-hit, rounded up to 49.

Hes an amazing fight, I don't see why everybody found him so hard, he only has like 5 moves that loop through the ENTIRE fight so if you just memorize those 5 moves then you really can't lose. Then memorize when to heal in between those moves and you literally can't lose. Its not like other bosses like Zote or Umuu where an attack can happen at any given moment while you are in the arena. NKG will always either appear close to you are far from you. There is no difference between any attack. Very easy but very fun

[Ellixer]

Some of these points are basically "boss is too hard" (too fast, too much health, lock you out of charm notches etc). I don't think these are legitimate problems against the boss. Certainly, they are legitimate things that can affect your enjoyment of the boss itself and is nothing to be ashamed of. But an optional boss fight in a DLC (which can also be completed without beating the boss) that is released after players already have a chance to beat the Radiance? Those are the bosses reserved for players who want exactly this kind of challenge, and if it's too hard it's doing its job. Also, I do not see how the fact that the boss is faster and stronger than the player is a problem. Surely, that would mean if the player wants to beat the boss, they would have to be purely better, more skilled. This isn't an RPG. It is good design that you cannot be stronger than a boss through farming and grinding. NKG's lacking this is a good thing I believe. You cannot be stronger than him. You have to be better.

You also mentioned several points that I would summarize as "limiting options" (most builds are not efficient for this boss, cannot parry/pogo, etc), fair point, but I do not think this is necessarily a problem. It is common game design for certain bosses to test specific skillsets, and NKG primarily tests your speed and reaction to its utmost limits and I'd argue whichever playstyle you utilized up until that point, speed and reaction had to be a primary skill the game demands up until that point. This would be a problem if Hollow Knight was an RPG, if, say, you can have a legitimate pure magic build (via leveling) up to this point and then you are met with a boss that cannot be defeated by magic. However, this is not the case. There are "Charm Builds" certainly, but since you unlock them all eventually (and certainly should have done so for this boss) you cannot screw yourself over. If a Charm configuration isn't working, you can simply swap it out for another.

The fact that souls don't stay is indeed annoying. I'd argue it's a lot less necessary than for other boss (like you said, magic isn't useful here and you cannot heal mid-fight), but it's still annoying to have to fight at (very) slightly less optimally without having to go through a lot of busy work.

As for randomization... I simply disagree here. The boss has a limited number of attacks, does not move around randomly and all attacks follow a specific sequence. Some attacks start out the same way so you cannot predict them, it is true, but you have enough time to register what he is about to do in half a second and that is enough time to react. If a boss can be beaten reliably without taking a single hit (as has been demonstrated), either the player is a psychic, or the boss is not random.

[Darc Vader]

Most of what I want to say has already been said by Kanra and Persona, but there's one point that I specifically want to address: You are in no way limited to one specific charm setup. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that he's one of the least charm dependant bosses in the game (obviously barring the early ones). So many bosses can be trivialized by the right charm build, but NKG seems to have been built to be a fight where cheesing the fight is next to impossible and it becomes a pure test of skill, reactions, and endurance.

Damage through Quick Slash, Fragile/Unbreakable Strength, Shaman Stone and or Flukenest, Nail Arts, or even passive damage sources are all viable. You can increase your survival by making healing easier/more efficient, increasing your mobility, or just piling on the health. One of the more effective builds I've heard used was to just put on all the minion charms, grubsong, and defender's crest and just focus completely on dodging with no attempt to attack.

You're just making it harder on yourself if you refuse to try and change up your strategy when your current one isn't working.