Why do so few peoples complete the game?

[Chronobyte]

So I was checking all achievement list today and I realized something.

Only 67% of peoples who got game beat 1st boss.
Alright alright. I know that 1st boss can be skipped.

BUT 2ND BOSS CAN'T! And only 57% of peoples have achievement for beating it.

(btw by "boss" I mean actual boss, not mini boss)

Also. 17% of peoples have achievement for "easiest" ending.
And after seeing that I started to wonder: Why do so few peoples complete the game?

[Meistermime]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von arceus03:

[...] My point is, each charm has its use in certain situations and not one comes without any real use in the game. Some may be less used compared to others, but that's a normal thing in games.

We never stated that they don't have a use. What we do say is that that specific use is close to be barely recognized. Try to read it at last properly what we said like we do with your posts. And just saing the stalward charm does not work like you said.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von arceus03:

[...] As far as I know, only the dream bosses and Grimm have their HP scale with your nail. Other bosses' HP remain constant. Even with the scaling, you are still at an advantage. Grimm's HP is 800 if your nail is not upgraded, and 1000 with the strongest nail. So you would have to hit him 160 times with the old nail, and only ~50 with the strongest.

Good math so far. Do you mind to finish it? are ~90 less hits equaly to 2 - 4h spend to find the parts? We tell you at this very point that it is not rewarding the effort in a true meaningfull way. You've done the math by yourself. We accept it that it is a game designt but we do not have to appreciate it.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von arceus03:

I've never had a problem with those, except maybe sometimes with the combination moves [...]

You said it by your self. Even you had problems. It is fine that you can get around it by solely accepting and addapting to it like we all do. But does not change the fact that it is a shame, that the game sacrifices smoothnes thanks to "you need to finish the animation first."

[Meistermime]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von MISTER BONK:

As a concept there is some really cool stuff that hasn't been implemented very well. Nail upgrades would be fine if they were useful, however, the areas where you would benefit from it have already been done and new enemies upgrade themselves to compensate (and even old ones get faster and tougher) so any benefit is automatically offset. Items and upgrades are most often given when you don't really have a use for them anymore. Bosses are really just a matter of learning the patterns regardless of which charms are used. People just want to get on with the game not throw countless hours switching and changing the charms only to backtrack all the way just to do it all again with little benefit.

A big issue I see with people is how this is being promoted as a Metroid-style product and this is what people are expecting. Aside from it being a side scrolling platform this is really nothing like the games it's being compared to in terms of what it's all about. When something meaningful is actually happening then it's really good, in fact I kept sending myself into the arena just for something to do.

Regarding the controls I understand this uses UNITY which is notoriously patchy for control lag so maybe that's it. I'm using an 8GB GPU with 16 GB i7 so that's more than enough welly to run this well. The comments people are making about this are consistent and for the person above to say they are all making it up because it's too hard for them is crazy.

Amen

[Shucks]

It blows my mind some people waste hours of their time making huge posts in a game thread about how bad a game is that is rated 90 on metacritic and opencritic as well as 96% positive votes on Steam..

Obviously the game is amazing, it's an indie game made by 3 people that sold over 3 million copies and has over 78,000 reviews on steam. If you wander on to reddit its constantly one of the most praised games. Some people love it, some people don't. Some people loved Super Metroid, some people didn't. Same with any other amazing game... Dark Souls, Bloodborne, Civ 5, Witcher 3, etc.

Trying to convince people this game isn't good in the forum of the game thats fans visit, is probably a giant waste of time and you're only going to look stupid.

[Meistermime]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von AsseT:

It blows my mind some people waste hours of their time making huge posts in a game thread about how bad a game is that is rated 90 on metacritic and opencritic as well as 96% positive votes on Steam.. [...]

It blows my mind as well. Because I missed the part where we clearly said: "lets form a petition to get this game the worst game of the year award." But I am sure that you'll show and explain it to me.
Now I'd may ask a question. Have you taken your time to read all the comments. Took your time to get behind their point of view? Or have you just scrolled through seen a wall of text didn't care the slightest and now posting sth. so you said sth. and hiding behind numbers? Be at last humble.

[THE VERY REVEREND MISTER BONK]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von AsseT:

It blows my mind some people waste hours of their time making huge posts in a game thread about how bad a game is that is rated 90 on metacritic and opencritic as well as 96% positive votes on Steam..

Obviously the game is amazing, it's an indie game made by 3 people that sold over 3 million copies and has over 78,000 reviews on steam. If you wander on to reddit its constantly one of the most praised games. Some people love it, some people don't. Some people loved Super Metroid, some people didn't. Same with any other amazing game... Dark Souls, Bloodborne, Civ 5, Witcher 3, etc.

Trying to convince people this game isn't good in the forum of the game thats fans visit, is probably a giant waste of time and you're only going to look stupid.

Yep, you really need to get some glasses kiddo. Nobody ever said "This is a bad game". When there are actual things worth doing there some really good ideas and it can be quite fun, however there are plenty of bad design choices - it's not the same thing. I personally said that deliberately making something to discourage people from continuing is "Bad Business" for future titles, which it is because so many people got stung with this one.

[Curious Incubus]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Meistermime:

You said it by your self. Even you had problems. It is fine that you can get around it by solely accepting and addapting to it like we all do. But does not change the fact that it is a shame, that the game sacrifices smoothnes thanks to "you need to finish the animation first."

Choicemaking is a part of every game, adding layers to what could easily be described as simplistic combat. It's something that most players are performing on a completely subconscious level.

For example, Call of Duty. The choices between moving quickly and acting precisely are the result of a single control that allows you to aim down sights. Some COD games will enhance the layers of this choicemaking by providing timed sequences, or camouflaging enemies. The decision between precision and movement becomes a multi-layered choice alongside the choice between danger and security.

Why am I describing this to you? Let's see...

"But does not change the fact that it is a shame, that the game sacrifices smoothnes thanks to 'you need to finish the animation first.'"

Animations add to the inherent value of choicemaking. The developers utilize them to provide stakes for a player's actions, such as healing. The player needs to decide when the best time is to heal, and whether the act of healing is worth the temporary vulnerability. To attempt a heal when the time wasn't right results in the game punishing you by wasting your soul or taking further damage. Dream nailing, healing, special moves, spells, all of which are decisions that you make based off of personal judgement. You are provided the time and capability to practice these in a controlled environment, so you understand the risks of performing each action. It's really basic videogame stuff that is present in pretty much every game. This is easy to understand. I'm sure you may already know this. If so, then why complain as though having these animations are a form of gatekeeping?

[🉑 rezno[R].technology]

This is a nice video showing how the whole charm system is designed and how it can be used by the player. Not all possible combinations are shown.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMzS2Fra-WE
As for godlike powers... I'm not sure you will find such "cheap overpowering" in any game with balanced game design. Some charms in the game had to be even nerfed down in patches, because they were too powerful.

However if you watch some speedrunning videos you'll see how you can get godlike powers not only by just items, but also by "how the player is evolving with more time spent in the game".

[THE VERY REVEREND MISTER BONK]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von 🉑 reznoR:

This is a nice video showing how the whole charm system is designed and how it can be used by the player.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMzS2Fra-WE
As for godlike powers... I'm not sure you will find such "cheap overpowering" in any game with balanced game design. Some charms in the game had to be even nerfed down in patches, because they were too powerful.

However if you watch some speedrunning videos you'll see how you can get godlike powers not only by just items, but also by "how the player is evolving with more time spent in the game".

No again not really, I don't know why you find it so hard to understand what people are saying unless you are using a cheat mod so I will say it One more time to see if it sinks in - Upgrades and charms are rendered non-effective by the game it'self as and when you get them.

Slog away for hours to get Nail Upgrades? Screw you we'll just make the enemies tougher to compensate.
Slog away for even more hours to find Life Bar Masks? Screw you we'll just increase the damage taken.
Slog away to find the Egg Shop to stop losing all your Geo? Screw you because by that time you don't need it much anymore.
Slog away to find the Ability to travel in Acid Water? Screw you because you don't actually need it at that stage.
Slog away at Boss and Arena fights to mount quick combination attacks? Screw you because we're going to make you sit through an animation before you can follow anything up.
This is how things are for the entirety of the game and when people start to realise this they rightly say "What's the point"? Is this in any way unclear to you?

[Souper Chicken]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von MISTER BONK:

Slog away for hours to get Nail Upgrades? Screw you we'll just make the enemies tougher to compensate.

There is a clear increase of damage against earlier enemies that you fought, and before you say "why would you bother going back to areas you've already been to and fighting enemies you've already fought?" you will most likely need to go back to those areas to find and do stuff you either missed or couldn't do because you weren't good enough or you were just missing the ability.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von MISTER BONK:

Slog away for even more hours to find Life Bar Masks? Screw you we'll just increase the damage taken.

The game rewards you for finding more masks because it will undeniably make bosses and areas easier and safer, very few enemies and bosses will do 2 damage so most enemies/bosses will be the exact same and having more health will help more than if you didn't.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von MISTER BONK:

Slog away to find the Egg Shop to stop losing all your Geo? Screw you because by that time you don't need it much anymore.

Just git gud and don't die to Gruz Mother.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von MISTER BONK:

Slog away to find the Ability to travel in Acid Water? Screw you because you don't actually need it at that stage.

This is just straight up wrong, getting Isma's Tear allows you to traverse areas like Queens Gardens and Fog Canyon better. Certain places can't be reached at all with out it and it will help massively.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von MISTER BONK:

Slog away at Boss and Arena fights to mount quick combination attacks? Screw you because we're going to make you sit through an animation before you can follow anything up.

Sorry I don't really understand what you mean by this, please explain in more detail.

[arceus03]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von MISTER BONK:

As a concept there is some really cool stuff that hasn't been implemented very well. Nail upgrades would be fine if they were useful, however, the areas where you would benefit from it have already been done and new enemies upgrade themselves to compensate (and even old ones get faster and tougher) so any benefit is automatically offset.

I really don't get your logic, then. In what game do the enemies not upgrade themselves to scale with your weapon? I don't know if you play Pokemon, but you wouldn't expect to see a L5 Rattata in Victory Road, would you? Heck, if the game goes like how you want it to be, you'd be complaining how the game gives no challenge since all the enemies are easy meat.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von MISTER BONK:

Items and upgrades are most often given when you don't really have a use for them anymore. Bosses are really just a matter of learning the patterns regardless of which charms are used.

Not really. Fragile/Unbreakable Strength, for example, is hugely useful over the course of the game. All the movement upgrades are useful till the end.

"Bosses are really just a matter of learning the patterns regardless of which charms are used." lol that is the case with most, if not all, action games like this. You have to learn their pattern to dodge and fight well, any extra accessories help but not a definite use-it-and-win item.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von MISTER BONK:

People just want to get on with the game not throw countless hours switching and changing the charms only to backtrack all the way just to do it all again with little benefit.

When you say people, you mean you. Not everyone loathes exploration and backtracking; in fact, that is part of the game's feature.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von MISTER BONK:

A big issue I see with people is how this is being promoted as a Metroid-style product and this is what people are expecting. Aside from it being a side scrolling platform this is really nothing like the games it's being compared to in terms of what it's all about. When something meaningful is actually happening then it's really good, in fact I kept sending myself into the arena just for something to do.

I wonder what are your expectations with the game, then, when you first played it.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von MISTER BONK:

Regarding the controls I understand this uses UNITY which is notoriously patchy for control lag so maybe that's it. I'm using an 8GB GPU with 16 GB i7 so that's more than enough welly to run this well. The comments people are making about this are consistent and for the person above to say they are all making it up because it's too hard for them is crazy.

I'm not saying people are making it up, I said yes, there are certain control issues, but nothing too bad that would make the game unplayable.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Meistermime:

We never stated that they don't have a use. What we do say is that that specific use is close to be barely recognized. Try to read it at last properly what we said like we do with your posts. And just saing the stalward charm does not work like you said.

The previous poster said that the charms don't have a discernible benefit. I'm countering it and saying that each charm has its use. And "close to be barely recognized", yes, I addressed it earlier. I said that not all charms are super useful all the time, and that's a common thing with items you get in games anyway. Tell me, what game that you use 100% of the given items 100% of the time?

Yeah, I mistakenly thought the poster was referring to Baldur Shell and not Stalwart Shell, but my point stands.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Meistermime:

Good math so far. Do you mind to finish it? are ~90 less hits equaly to 2 - 4h spend to find the parts? We tell you at this very point that it is not rewarding the effort in a true meaningfull way. You've done the math by yourself. We accept it that it is a game designt but we do not have to appreciate it.

~90 less hits for the boss. Not counting the enemies you have to kill getting here and there and backtracking. So yes, it does offset. Try playing the game without upgrading your nails and see how much longer it would take you to finish.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Meistermime:

You said it by your self. Even you had problems. It is fine that you can get around it by solely accepting and addapting to it like we all do. But does not change the fact that it is a shame, that the game sacrifices smoothnes thanks to "you need to finish the animation first."

Yes, but the few occasional stutters in the control don't break the game or make it unplayable. If you ever found a game without glitches and bug where the control is executed flawlessly, let me know.

I don't understand what you mean by needing to finish the animation. If you mean the Focusing part to heal, then that's part of the game's feature.

[Meistermime]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Curious_Incubus:

[...] This is easy to understand. I'm sure you may already know this. If so, then why complain as though having these animations are a form of gatekeeping?

Thank you very much for taking your time. And yes I do see the points. And yes those are design choices. What I tryed to point out is that exaclty those choice may lead to frustration because the heal already went out but you are not allowed to jump/ move because the animation is not finished. The so called forced: "you have to be punished". Some bosses can frustrate you because of that. They give you nerly no time to move at so, it forces you to nearly "ace" him.
The whole thread we having here is based on why ppl. do not want to play anymore. So therefore we looked at that specific design choice. If the defs. even read this it might help in some way. Else we just can have a nice conv.

[Meistermime]

First and foremost thanks for your time you've spend arceus. I guess most ppl. will be scared to read it but I think we do have some values here we should appreciate.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von arceus03:

[...] I said that not all charms are super useful all the time, and that's a common thing with items you get in games anyway.

I do think we can debate a very long time about that. What I really like to point out are particular two things:
1. The game might has its "progress" but that progress feels liek you've moved for about 5m by spending 5h +. Thats because the scaling is not properly done for my taste.
2. I've played other Metroidvania like games which do have a superiour design choice regarding to items and progress. Hollow Knight is presenting you constantly with nearly the same amount of struggle. And thats why I feel like: "yea I have not achieved much." I'd really like to refere to Mister Bonk where he pointed the things out when you needed it and when you got it. Since I think he describes it way better than I did.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von arceus03:

[...] Tell me, what game that you use 100% of the given items 100% of the time?

The flags in Minesweeper which are used to mark bad tiles.
Sorry you are right. And thats what I like to point out. You should be happy to have a new item, you should feel a little thrill that you grinded for sth. and you finaly got that weapon/ skin/ armor what so ever. You have it and you can feel a little dopanin rush. Hollow Knight can't provide that for me in this case. Because its not even inviting me to play with the charms as en example. All of thos keep telling me: "well you can now summon things... but they are as week as your lvl 1 nail... and die after contact... and just spawn every 20s. But only if you have enough soul... which we drain anyway... And thats basically with 90% of all charms. Even those of which you think personaly are usefull have had to be made annoying. Like the fragile ones. My mind is like: "on what mad reason was it worth the effort?

Ursprünglich geschrieben von arceus03:

~90 less hits for the boss. Not counting the enemies you have to kill getting here and there and backtracking. So yes, it does offset. Try playing the game without upgrading your nails and see how much longer it would take you to finish.

Well that is a point with the none essential ennemies. I should include them as well. But regarding to the backtracking... In all honesty only cross roads have to be visited on ha heavy occasion...and yet the game desides to do things with it... which lead to the same part: "you got a stronger nail, the ennemie addapts which basicall leats you to 0 +1 = 1 aaaaand 1 -1 = 0 so you are technically at the very same point again. You might understand me now? You can screw with yourself by not obtaining the nail upgrades so it gets harder... but you can't grind so you get truly stronger.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von arceus03:

Yes, but the few occasional stutters in the control don't break the game or make it unplayable. If you ever found a game without glitches and bug where the control is executed flawlessly, let me know.

I might have not explained my self well enough. I try to point out that ppl. might abandon this game because they get frustrated, which would be the point where a game becomes "unplayable". I pointed out that the design choice for the controls can lead to more frustration. Just imagin ppl. who fought Hornet for the first time. Some took 2h to beat her which I for my self can not really understand since I got her 1st try... But imagine that you can't pass it. You get a set back after set back. And on the very end of that you see how you're char is not moving, because he needs to finish his animation bevore you can jump or do anything else... meaning you get hit which the healing will be negated at the very same spot... because of an animation which you can't even enjoy because you are stressed because of being in a boss fight. In short it feels that the game is bit**slapping you. And thats why I say it is a design flaw.

[🉑 rezno[R].technology]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Meistermime:

And thats why I say it is a design flaw.

You can say whatever you want, it's your opinion, and this is a public forum.

I prefer rather to trust the developers, as they have much more knowledge and experience creating games than me (I have practically none, only read the book The Art of Game Design: A Book of Lenses, which I BTW recommend reading), and I would say that all this is rather an intended design choice.

Today I managed to beat Soul Tyrant for the first time with a popular minion charm build that you complain about. Previously I used different charms (rather for nail or spells), but this boss was just way too much for me for my more "aggressive" playing style, so I gave up for awhile. But with this build I tried experimenting and totally changing my style for this boss (just for sheer fun and curiosity), so I almost didn't have to attack at all, I just focused on dodging his attacks, und voila, absolute satisfaction. Good luck trying to Old Nail him. And without charms. I would love to watch it.

The charm build is:
— Weaversong
— Grimmchild
— Glowing Womb
— Defender's Crest
— Grubsong (bonus effect: spiders generate Soul automatically, I don't even have to attack)
— Sprintmaster (bonus effect: spiders are faster)
— Unbreakable Heart (for more vitality, yes, you can make fragile charms unbreakable)

If somebody says that charms have no real meaningful effect and the game discourages experiments or changing play styles or doesn't reward players' time and effort put into the game, I just don't really take them seriously. My experience is totally different.

I have absolute fun with this game (when you have fun, you totally don't count hours spent on it) and seeing that there are some people having such unpopular opinions about it I just smile sadly and I wish you could enjoy it as much as most people do. Good luck finding a better game for you and have a nice day :)

[Funchucks]

I'm curious what percentage reach some ending. Unfortunately, there is no achievement for "any ending", only separate ones for each ending, and we don't get stats on combinations of achievements.

If it's 30%, then it seems there's almost no overlap between people who get the easiest ending and the "proper" ending, which doesn't seem right. Yet it also seems unlikely that over 30% would do everything necessary to start the boss battle of the easiest ending, but under 20% would actually stick with it until they win it (it's not that hard, and anyone who can get to it should be able to beat it in a few tries). But easiest Grimm is a similar difficulty to Hollow Knight and has a similar completion percentage. Maybe people really are giving up at Hollow Knight?

If you've reached an ending, did you only do one? Have you gotten to the Hollow Knight yet not defeated him?

[Meistermime]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von 🉑 reznoR:

I prefer rather to trust the developers, as they have much more knowledge and experience creating games than me [...]

Just because someone calls himself experienced or even a master in sth. does not mean that he is invincible to make bad choices. At the end we are humans after all and with mistakes done we shine best. And at some point we even crave for flaws than for perfectnes.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von 🉑 reznoR:

If somebody says that charms have no real meaningful effect and the game discourages experiments or changing play styles or doesn't reward players' time and effort put into the game, I just don't really take them seriously. My experience is totally different.

I think you ignored some points I just said. Yet you refered to the wiki 2 times by now, searched for a viki video on youtube and even posted a "wiki" build in this chat. I do really appreciate your effort but like I said you might just flat out ignored me.
I do not want to look up on the wiki pages because I do not want to get spoilered. It feels like: "well we have not been capable of showing you the effect directly because we thought we did well. Guess you sacrifice the fun of discovering stuff for being spoilered and we tell you how you get your head arround our "Enimgmaesc" item design."
I'd love to refere to a little sentence they though me during programming clases: "If you do have to explain your interface to a user, than your interface isn't as good as you think."

And I do think that some points I said are just mistanken, ignored or brought up in a twisted way. The general goal in this thread is to figure out why the percentage is that low for completing this game, right? So we point out flaws we experienced during the game.
E.g. just 50% managed to get their first charm, which is about 30 - 60 min game time? Yet as an answer we get: "No this game is not bad, its 96% on steam." See the problem?
Right now we have to face ppl. who desperately try to convince that everything is not true. And I point it out here. They are desperate to explain why my very own experience is not existend. And some of them even manage to fear my opinion that much that they even have to come up with different things they just interpreted for them self. Like behaving that I am some sort of leader who is craving for a petition that this game should get the "badest game" evard of the year. Whits is plain crazy.
Regarding to that build you posted as well as that boss which I think is the endgame boss. If is that so, it does not change that you still get the things just on time. Meaning that you barely match up with ennemies. Providing me not really a good feelling regarded to char progression. It is like being a 6th grader picking up fights with 3rd grader to feel powerfull. What sort of logic is that?

In short: Our goal is to understand why ppl. quit playing this game. So we can start to look for reasons. And one good legitimate way to understand whys that so is to compare own experiences. With those pointed out you can figure out some major and minor flaws and points right? And if you really do want to come up with a usefull conclusion you have to take those flaws/ points and start asking ppl. Then you get charts. Charts who tell you 658 out of 1000 said... And with that you get some things done. At last you can figure out what the majority wants. Which is at last the goal of each and every product/ game nowadays. Being sold to a broad poblicum. And just as a little adition by which ppl. you should ask. Best is to ask ppl. who abandond gaming it, not asking the hardcore fans which are hooked. It is the same for fishing. You don't aks a fish which bate he wants. You go and ask a successfull fisherman.