Pantheon content - alternative to checkpoints

[Fluffiest Princess]

First up - I like the idea of optional checkpoints. I have an alternative solution, though. One which I think I actually prefer.

Remove the easy trash bosses from Pantheon of Hallownest. Make it about the same length as the other Pantheons - 10-15 minutes rather than 45 - but just containing the game's most difficult bosses with AR at the end.

If you've beaten Pantheon of Hallownest - how many times did you die to Massive Moss Charger? Or Hornet 1? By the time you start taking a serious run at the Pantheons, you've moved past that being an obstacle.

These easy bosses don't increase the challenge, just the duration. They're padding. It's like games that put an unskippable cutscene or a long walk between the checkpoint and the boss. It doesn't increase the difficulty. It's just 100% aggravation.

You could take two-thirds or so of the bosses out of Pantheon of Hallownest without making it meaningfully easier. It'd just be fifteen minutes between attempts, and not the better part of an hour. You'd still need to be good enough to beat all the nailmasters, NKG, Markoth, and PV with enough reliability to do them back-to-back and get to AR, which is the true challenge of Pantheon of Hallownest.

The all-the-bosses rush would need to be available somehow. Maybe just in Godseeker mode, or maybe in a new sideroom in the main game. Honestly, this is the biggest problem with this suggestion - implementing it would take longer.

[Arti_Sel]

@ Vorean, most of your posts feels like a repeat of things we have already discussed, I'll address some of the new parts and the larger points.

First things first, it doesn't surprise me at all that you are a game dev who also still reads kotaku and probably other games journos. Explains perfectly how you are ok with the evolution of the me and da series.

To your claim that I'm calling you absurd without any reason. I'm pretty sure I haven't come out and actually called you absurd, you probably came to that conclusion based on some specific reasons I stated.

You are all over the place in describing what was already in the game, not sure what the point of that section is. Tbh most of your post seems to be just stating things that are in the game and acting indignent about it as if the devs are completely crazy to do such a thing.

Then we have some butthurt about not getting new toys. I'd repeat that this game isn't a powerfantasy but I don't think you understand why that would be a bad thing, you probably loved the shift of focus from deadspace 1 to deadspace 3. Wouldn't surprise me if pre-order bonuses like dragon armor is good design for you. The new charms probably took away too much from the challenge so they were cut, game is better for it.

Then to whatever you call tedium, I call gameplay. It's warmup. The reason it takes so long is because you should feel it in your bones when you eventually beat it. It's a marathon challenge. There is precedent for this in the game in the form of the arena. They put the ending at the end of that marathon challenge cause it's the carrot on the stick, it give further incentive to beat it. That last part you seem to have identified but you are smh mad about it. The greatest challenge carries the greatest reward, that seems fair to me.

Devs decided to increase the difficulty level beyond radiance for another last ending. Which ending you get is decided by how skilled you are and how much you are willing to sacrifice. Again it also makes perfect sense from a story perspective, there is congruence here and it helps immensely with the immersion.

I'd just end on the note that I wouldn't trust a kotaku reading game dev who doesn't understand how the da and me series got ruined, to tamper with hollowknight. People like you should be held at like 5 degrees of seperation from anything good.

Edit - I searched for that kotaku thing you mentioned and this was the first thing that came up https://kotaku.com/the-makers-of-hollow-knight-are-fine-with-players-missi-1828721254

It says flat out in the name of the article that the devs are fine with players missing content, you should have been able to deduce that from gameplay but whatever. I also tried to listen a bit to the audio but those effeminate voices just reeks of soiboy ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. I can't imagine any self-respecting man listening to that. Nevermind water turning the frogs gay, those podcasts are harmful for human development.

[CeliriaRose]

Originally posted by Hexates7:

Originally posted by VoreanTheKobold:

Also seriously; over and over you claim it's absurd. Why is it absurd? Give reasons as to why it is absurd. Why is it SOLELY an appeal to the emotions, and not a legitmate critique? We've been speaking on not difficulty, but the tedium of the challenge.

And logically; again. The first 10 enemies within the Pantheon of Hallownest are a snorefest. There is no need to fight them over and over each time and would shave off a good amount of time for each run, make it more viable and within the realm of reason. Yet we must fight them every single time, don't we?

It is padding, it is unnecessary outside of stating 'you beat everything'. Benches heal your wounds after the tenth battle, for every set of five bosses. Thus there are no lasting consequences from previous fights unless you've got Lifeblood Masks and are trying to carry them over, but even fewer have those.

Thus any damage you retained from those ten fights is gone, and soul spent is regained. There is no impact of those fights moving forward. And at the very least, the difficulty of those ten fights are extremely low, especially considering players HAVE to beat Pure Vessel, and also nearly every other boss in the game twice at the very LEAST to have gotten this far.

Is it that outlandish to want to get to the meat of the content, without having to squander our time on the meager bits? And even further; if the early part of the Pantheon of Hallownest is easy, doesn't that seem misleading toward the difficulty of the later parts? Is it that bad to want or desire a more consistent Pantheon?

Further; let me contrast something. The original ending of the game consisted of the White Palace, which was a platforming section with no real urgency. And the Traitor Lord, who was somewhat a rough enemy. Give or take a few Dream Warriors or Bosses too, to get the Ascended Nail.

Then you fight the easy-as-balls Hollow Knight, and face The Radiance. This boss was one of the more difficult enemies of the game, but you were fully healed upon entry, and you unlocked an ending as a result of their defeat.

Trial of the Fools was seventeen waves of enemies with varying arenas as well to fight in, sometimes even without floors, and was difficult as heck in a lot of fashions. Your reward was a Boss Fight at the end, a percentage point, and geo. Nothing else attached.

Now let me speak about the other DLC and the precedents they set. Hidden Dreams bosses were completely optional, and outside of meager rewards such as statues, they gave very little incentive to do them. Rewards nonetheless with Essecence, but nothing that jipped out the majority of the community.

Grimm Troupe? Nightmare King Grimm's demise rewarded a Charm, but if you chose to Banish him instead, if due to difficulty, this boss could be ignored, you would gain a percentage point, alongside a different charm entirely as a result of your actions. This would reward both players. Whether they wanted a challenge, or to complete the story, or even 'roleplay' with the Knight if they so wanted to, saving the Kingdom for the ritual, or surrendering said Kingdom for it.

Path of Pain was also completely optional. Yet it had checkpoints for each section you completed, and about a third of it could be skipped provided you completed that part and hit a lever at the end. Thus you could leave and come back with less to do. It rewarded you with a very small cutscene with lore implications, and a journey entry.

You with me so far? So when we look at the Path of Pain, Trial of the Fool, and even Hidden Dreams, there was very little in way of rewards and they were very optional, there was nothing you were locked out of, truly with these fights. When we look at Nightmare King Grimm, he has the Grimmchild charm behind him, and one of two paths to finish his DLC, the other being easier and subjectively the good ending.

The Radiance is the only one that had endings locked behind them, and this made sense since they had the designated role of True Final Boss.

Yet in all of these encounters, there were checkpoints, or you could rest nearby. Dreams would kick you out, Radiance would knock you to the close by bench, and Path of Pain had checkpoints.

The game was not TEDIOUS. Was it difficult? Yes, each DLC even moved the goalposts for 'most difficult content' a bit further! But the majority of it was optional, and the game could be played to one's skill. That skill could be challenged, but there were few, sometimes good (especially good in regards to The Radiance), but few incentives to desire to do such.

Now Godmaster is released. Advertised to have Glorifying Charms, and unlike any of the predecessors which had things like the Dreamgate, the hidden Stag Station, or a buttload of charms or likewise, very little content that empowered the Knight in any substantial way. That was disappointing in itself, but that's fine. I'm content with that, it is free content.

Now, let me tell you about the difficulty, the tedium, and the rewards of Godmaster.

Godmaster has ten boss fights, per Pantheon save for the last one. This is new, but it is a boss rush. A signature of the genre, yes. Some boss-rushes DO allow you to start off from certain points, give you multiple lifes, heal you so on. But the first few pantheons are not bad as it stands, at all. And we even have the Hall of Gods, which is a nice boon for players.

There were some difficult fights, Pre-Nerf Uumuu, Zote, so on. But I would say Sly is the equivalent of what the Watcher Knights were for some people. I say the first three are fine.

When we hit the fourth; there is a small issue here. But I still think the Pantheon itself is fair. Pure Vessel however comes at the end of some of the hardest bosses in Hollow Knight, and he's about on par with Nightmare King Grimm in difficulty, if not higher a touch, give or take. So one of the hardest bosses in the game.

Given how short the Pantheon is? I did not find myself disheartened, or bored with the tedium. I was annoyed at my skill at first when I'd make it to the end only to flub to Soul Tyrant before him, or straight out to Pure Vessel. But I 'got gud' as so many love to profess.

Now where I have issue is the Final Pantheon, and the Final Pantheon alone. This is a far-cry from the difficulty, tedium, and rewards of other optional tasks.

Instead of essence, a charm, a statue, geo, or a very small cutscene, we have substantial endings to the game. And even then I wouldn't be so ruffled by this, an odd choice sure but not the first time a Boss Rush had such a reward. But these endings have very significant lore-aspects tied to them. In a very barebones expansion in regards to story and lore, the meat of such can be found in this Pantheon's reward. That's a first.

But the lore that gets me the most, is that given how there is an encounter between Hornet and the Hollow Knight, and what happens to Godhome and the Knight, there is a lot of open room, and a lot of implication this ending is the one that leads into Hornet's DLC, and is very liable to establish itself as the canon set of events, the canon ending.

So we've a pretty big incentive compared to the other harder things to do in the game.

Now the Pantheon has difficulty. This is found in the bosses. Because not only are both Nightmare King Grimm and Pure Vessel are in this, alongside a few other choice Bosses that any number of players could struggle with, and not only because we have a few NEW bosses in this, and not only because these fights have been put of 'semi-ascended' difficulty with new arenas and dynamics to consider...

We have Absolute Radiance. The HARDEST boss in the game. Hands-down, you will lose the first time you fight them, necessiating you replay the entire gauntlet over.

We have established rewards, and difficulty. And tedium.

A single, completed run of this takes upward around 40 minutes to do. If you die; you restart from the beginning. You have 40 or so bosses, and a good chunk of them are padding, filler and easy to boot. A waste of time. And unlike other difficult challenges this game has presented so far, this is exceedingly tedious. It is overly punishing. If you have massive trouble with one boss in Hollow Knight, you better hope you can beat it, or you'll have to repeat all the preceding bosses before it.

So what we have here is difficulty, tedium, and a reward that is basically tantamount to saying 'true ending of Hollow Knight'.

From my position; I could argue about any of these issues. But I don't want to touch the difficulty, at all. The bosses are fine, they are well-tuned, and adjusting them in Godhome, might impact them outside of Godhome as well. I understand things like Radiant difficulty are not for me! That's fine, and they didn't gate a massive story-changing reward behind such. That's fair design to me. I'm not even a fan of most of the nerfs presented so far, because the checkpoint solution would allow for such difficulty in my opinion.

So what I have been advocating for is to either, put the endings elsewhere, or simply put, cut down on the tedium of this Boss Rush. Make it so we don't have to lose all our progress if we aren't perfect the whole way through; make mistakes, get caught in tight positions, so on. Checkpoints in order to cut down on the tedium. There are five bosses per set, and it doesn't matter whether they beat 100 before them, or 0. Luck can play a big role in a boss fight's success or failure. Checkpoints cut out the fluff in the pantheons that players have already beaten. Recognizes their victory. And doesn't send them back to do the things they have down by heart already. They still need to beat every single boss, but they don't have to repeat it over and over. This is a LONG boss rush to begin with, at some point length necessiates some level of checkpoint.

As I said before, 15% of people or less have beaten the Radiance. 0.01% so far have beaten the Pantheon of Hallownest. A result that is basically 1 in each 1,500 so far. Even if it's only been a few days, that is telling Give it another week, sure to see how it goes. And I have always advocated to keep a checkpoint-less Boss Rush an option, always.

But I feel that the Pantheon of Hallownest as a whole serves as a stark contrast to everything that came before it. Not in just ramped up difficulty, but additionally how unforgiving it can be, and how large the endings are as a whole for the story of Hollow Knight.

There have been thread after thread on this topic, on multiple forums. So many people, countless ones, advocating for such a thing and all coming to the exact same conclusion that the Pantheon itself is TEDIOUS. Not the difficulty, but the TEDIUM. And as a game-designer and creator, I feel like Team Cherry at least needs to hear this feedback, needs to listen to what is said, and at least take it in mind. Even if they just end up telling us they won't put checkpoints, that's fine. I can fully comprehend the mindset of this Pantheon on paper.

We as people who've tried it, have experience with it, and come away with such are trying to convey the execution isn't for us. And that's FINE. Confirmation on that, is fine. It gives me an idea about their design policies perhaps and I might not find such the best for ME, but for others it might be exactly up their alley! It depends on what way they wish to go.

And MAYBE, especially considering the reward (i mean it's a fully animated cutscene, that cost some dosh), it was meant for more people to see. Maybe not. Time will tell, but it's best to speak up and say something, rather than nothing.

There. Extremely long post. Read it? Enjoy a virtual fake cookie. Courtesy of what was probably testament to weaponized autism lol.

Nice analysis of the situation and spot-on to my mind. The fact that some people here just stubbornly reject any kind of suggestion on changes to GM whatsoever shows that to me, that they are completely unressonable and selfish. Their arguments basically boil down *leave everything as is and don‘t question TC‘s design* which is an absurdly uncritical and dogmatic way of thinking.

Yes we are somehow selfish for wanting the game to stay the way the devs intended and made it as opposed to all the people like you demanding it change to suit your own tastes. Maybe look in a mirror because you all are acting more selfishly here. We aren't the ones expecting to be catered to because we refuse to beat the mode properly.

Basically:

Us: Yeah the modes fine, it's challenging but that's the point and it's doable if you work at it.

You: But I want the content, make it easier so I can get the content. I bought your game so I deserve the content and you need to make accessible for me.

Again, we are respecting what the devs made and the intent of the mode, you are demanding changes. You are the ones acting selfishly.

[Fluffiest Princess]

Originally posted by CeliriaRose:

Originally posted by Hexates7:

Nice analysis of the situation and spot-on to my mind. The fact that some people here just stubbornly reject any kind of suggestion on changes to GM whatsoever shows that to me, that they are completely unressonable and selfish. Their arguments basically boil down *leave everything as is and don‘t question TC‘s design* which is an absurdly uncritical and dogmatic way of thinking.

Yes we are somehow selfish for wanting the game to stay the way the devs intended and made it as opposed to all the people like you demanding it change to suit your own tastes. Maybe look in a mirror because you all are acting more selfishly here. We aren't the ones expecting to be catered to because we refuse to beat the mode properly.

You're not asking to be catered to because you are already being catered to. It's easy to praise the devs as Infallible Gods of Game Design who MUST NOT BE QUESTIONED when you're one of the lucky few who have the oceans of free time to attempt a challenge that is forty-five minutes long with no checkpoints and contains the three hardest fights in the entire game back-to-back at the end.

For the rest of us - well, maybe Team Cherry will decide they're ok with the state of affairs that excludes so many players. But if you don't ask, you don't get. So we're asking.

[CeliriaRose]

Originally posted by Self-rescuing Princess:

Originally posted by CeliriaRose:

Yes we are somehow selfish for wanting the game to stay the way the devs intended and made it as opposed to all the people like you demanding it change to suit your own tastes. Maybe look in a mirror because you all are acting more selfishly here. We aren't the ones expecting to be catered to because we refuse to beat the mode properly.

You're not asking to be catered to because you are already being catered to. It's easy to praise the devs as Infallible Gods of Game Design who MUST NOT BE QUESTIONED when you're one of the lucky few who have the oceans of free time to attempt a challenge that is forty-five minutes long with no checkpoints and contains the three hardest fights in the entire game back-to-back at the end.

For the rest of us - well, maybe Team Cherry will decide they're ok with the state of affairs that excludes so many players. But if you don't ask, you don't get. So we're asking.

Oh no how horrible that we are the target audience. How awful /s . Yes we are being "catered to" because content has to be designed for an audience. The difference is they built the content with an audience in mind (those who wanted the challenge) and rather than facing the fact that the audience isn't you and either adapting, using a cheat mod, or going and playing something you do like you are demanding that the mode be changed away from that vision so that you don't have to try so hard to succeed. Pretty big difference between the target audience and people demanding that everything be specifically altered for them.

[Fluffiest Princess]

Originally posted by Arti_Sel:

Edit - I searched for that kotaku thing you mentioned and this was the first thing that came up https://kotaku.com/the-makers-of-hollow-knight-are-fine-with-players-missi-1828721254

It says flat out in the name of the article that the devs are fine with players missing content, you should have been able to deduce that from gameplay but whatever. I also tried to listen a bit to the audio but those effeminate voices just reeks of soiboy ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. I can't imagine any self-respecting man listening to that. Nevermind water turning the frogs gay, those podcasts are harmful for human development.

I don't even know where to start with this comment. It's so precious in its absurdity that I'm genuinely tempted to mark it as the topic answer so that everyone can appreciate this priceless self-own.

[Fluffiest Princess]

Originally posted by CeliriaRose:

Originally posted by Self-rescuing Princess:

You're not asking to be catered to because you are already being catered to. It's easy to praise the devs as Infallible Gods of Game Design who MUST NOT BE QUESTIONED when you're one of the lucky few who have the oceans of free time to attempt a challenge that is forty-five minutes long with no checkpoints and contains the three hardest fights in the entire game back-to-back at the end.

For the rest of us - well, maybe Team Cherry will decide they're ok with the state of affairs that excludes so many players. But if you don't ask, you don't get. So we're asking.

Oh no how horrible that we are the target audience. How awful /s . Yes we are being "catered to" because content has to be designed for an audience. The difference is they built the content with an audience in mind (those who wanted the challenge) and rather than facing the fact that the audience isn't you and either adapting, using a cheat mod, or going and playing something you do like you are demanding that the mode be changed away from that vision so that you don't have to try so hard to succeed. Pretty big difference between the target audience and people demanding that everything be specifically altered for them.

I'm actually looking into creating a cheat mod that will take the edge off the tedium of the Pantheon of Hallownest, but modding for Hollow Knight is really badly documented and I have a lot of other things to do with my time. If it becomes apparent that Team Cherry have no intention of changing their game to suit what appears to be the majority of their audience, then I'll see what I can do.

I see no demands, only complaints and suggestions. No-one is proposing a boycott of the Hornet DLC, review-bombing, or anything else that would apply meaningful pressure to Team Cherry. If you hav any interest in debating in good faith, knock off mischaracterising everyone who disagrees with you.

[Arti_Sel]

Originally posted by Self-rescuing Princess:

Originally posted by Arti_Sel:

Edit - I searched for that kotaku thing you mentioned and this was the first thing that came up https://kotaku.com/the-makers-of-hollow-knight-are-fine-with-players-missi-1828721254

It says flat out in the name of the article that the devs are fine with players missing content, you should have been able to deduce that from gameplay but whatever. I also tried to listen a bit to the audio but those effeminate voices just reeks of soiboy ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. I can't imagine any self-respecting man listening to that. Nevermind water turning the frogs gay, those podcasts are harmful for human development.

I don't even know where to start with this comment. It's so precious in its absurdity that I'm genuinely tempted to mark it as the topic answer so that everyone can appreciate this priceless self-own.

I'm guessing you skipped the part were I entered new and relevant information into the thread and instead latched on to the fact that I take my mental health into consideration before I consume media. But by all means mark it as the answer, cause it is.

The key information you missed is that the devs are fine with players missing out on content. They have been fine with that all along. This isn't any different, you guys are not special. We are not special. I'm guessing the devs make the content for the audience they want to have and not the audience we make out to be. It's entirely possible I won't be able to finish the fifth pantheon, and I'm fine with that. If they make a game with a range of endings, and I don't have the patience or the skills to make it to the absolute final ending, that's on me.

[Arti_Sel]

Originally posted by Self-rescuing Princess:

I see no demands, only complaints and suggestions. No-one is proposing a boycott of the Hornet DLC, review-bombing, or anything else that would apply meaningful pressure to Team Cherry. If you hav any interest in debating in good faith, knock off mischaracterising everyone who disagrees with you.

When I joined the discussion you were doing a headcount of people who were on "your side". And this guy was organizing a social media campaign.

Originally posted by Hexates7:

For those of you who really want to make an effective change about Godmaster, don‘t forget to express your opinion on other media like reddit, twitter, discord etc. Your words have to reach the developers to make a change, after all.

There was even some overzealous sjw calling me a nazi in that thread and encouraging their people to shun me. That's some straight up college protest vibes you had going. I'd call that meaningful pressure.

[DJDiceZ]

Originally posted by Arti_Sel:

Originally posted by Self-rescuing Princess:

I see no demands, only complaints and suggestions. No-one is proposing a boycott of the Hornet DLC, review-bombing, or anything else that would apply meaningful pressure to Team Cherry. If you hav any interest in debating in good faith, knock off mischaracterising everyone who disagrees with you.

When I joined the discussion you were doing a headcount of people who were on "your side". And this guy was organizing a social media campaign.

Originally posted by Hexates7:

For those of you who really want to make an effective change about Godmaster, don‘t forget to express your opinion on other media like reddit, twitter, discord etc. Your words have to reach the developers to make a change, after all.

There was even some overzealous sjw calling me a nazi in that thread and encouraging their people to shun me. That's some straight up college protest vibes you had going. I'd call that meaningful pressure.

Well, the pressure was on you, not Team Cherry. You do realize your incendiary remarks make you look like a troll, regardless of whether you're trying to be serious or not?

It's not about political correctness and i myself couldn't care less for it, it's about being civil.

If you're unsatisfied with the ammount of respect you're getting, perhaps you could try showing more yourself.

[Arti_Sel]

Originally posted by DJDiceZ:

Originally posted by Arti_Sel:

When I joined the discussion you were doing a headcount of people who were on "your side". And this guy was organizing a social media campaign.



There was even some overzealous sjw calling me a nazi in that thread and encouraging their people to shun me. That's some straight up college protest vibes you had going. I'd call that meaningful pressure.

Well, the pressure was on you, not Team Cherry. You do realize your incendiary remarks make you look like a troll, regardless of whether you're trying to be serious or not?

Lol, it does not matter what you call me when my words ring true.

Originally posted by DJDiceZ:

It's not about political correctness and i myself couldn't care less for it, it's about being civil.

Oh wow, you say it's not about political correctness so it must be true! Geez, and my first impression was that you were trying to govern my tone like some self-appointed language police.

Originally posted by DJDiceZ:

If you're unsatisfied with the ammount of respect you're getting, perhaps you could try showing more yourself.

Assuming makes an ass out of u and me.

[DJDiceZ]

Life must be tough when you're constantly pissed off and seeing an attack everywhere.

[Arti_Sel]

Going wildly off-topic now

Originally posted by DJDiceZ:

Life must be tough when you're constantly pissed off and seeing an attack everywhere.

You're projecting. I'm quite zen most of the time.

[DJDiceZ]

Hah, at least you have a strange sense of humour

[Arti_Sel]

Originally posted by DJDiceZ:

Hah, at least you have a strange sense of humour

My secret ingredient is a nugget of truth.

[Fluffiest Princess]

Originally posted by Arti_Sel:

Originally posted by Self-rescuing Princess:

I see no demands, only complaints and suggestions. No-one is proposing a boycott of the Hornet DLC, review-bombing, or anything else that would apply meaningful pressure to Team Cherry. If you hav any interest in debating in good faith, knock off mischaracterising everyone who disagrees with you.

When I joined the discussion you were doing a headcount of people who were on "your side". And this guy was organizing a social media campaign.

By "social media campaign" you mean "post on Twitter so Team Cherry are more likely to see it". And nobody has needed to headcount the people against the changes because there are, like, two and a half of you.

Originally posted by Arti_Sel:

Originally posted by Hexates7:

For those of you who really want to make an effective change about Godmaster, don‘t forget to express your opinion on other media like reddit, twitter, discord etc. Your words have to reach the developers to make a change, after all.

There was even some overzealous sjw calling me a nazi in that thread and encouraging their people to shun me. That's some straight up college protest vibes you had going. I'd call that meaningful pressure.

Referring to people as SJWs, soyboys, and f*ggots doesn't lessen the impression that you're some Sieg-Hieling pinworm slurping away inside the humid anal passage of the alt-right.