Pantheon content - alternative to checkpoints

[Fluffiest Princess]

First up - I like the idea of optional checkpoints. I have an alternative solution, though. One which I think I actually prefer.

Remove the easy trash bosses from Pantheon of Hallownest. Make it about the same length as the other Pantheons - 10-15 minutes rather than 45 - but just containing the game's most difficult bosses with AR at the end.

If you've beaten Pantheon of Hallownest - how many times did you die to Massive Moss Charger? Or Hornet 1? By the time you start taking a serious run at the Pantheons, you've moved past that being an obstacle.

These easy bosses don't increase the challenge, just the duration. They're padding. It's like games that put an unskippable cutscene or a long walk between the checkpoint and the boss. It doesn't increase the difficulty. It's just 100% aggravation.

You could take two-thirds or so of the bosses out of Pantheon of Hallownest without making it meaningfully easier. It'd just be fifteen minutes between attempts, and not the better part of an hour. You'd still need to be good enough to beat all the nailmasters, NKG, Markoth, and PV with enough reliability to do them back-to-back and get to AR, which is the true challenge of Pantheon of Hallownest.

The all-the-bosses rush would need to be available somehow. Maybe just in Godseeker mode, or maybe in a new sideroom in the main game. Honestly, this is the biggest problem with this suggestion - implementing it would take longer.

[TheUncle]

So what would be the ten or eleven if we decide to put Absolute Radiance in this Pantheon?

The final ten bosses of the Hallownest Pantheon? Or switch out a dream warrior or two?

[DJDiceZ]

Originally posted by Self-rescuing Princess:

First up - I like the idea of optional checkpoints. I have an alternative solution, though. One which I think I actually prefer.

Remove the easy trash bosses from Pantheon of Hallownest. Make it about the same length as the other Pantheons - 10-15 minutes rather than 45 - but just containing the game's most difficult bosses with AR at the end.

If you've beaten Pantheon of Hallownest - how many times did you die to Massive Moss Charger? Or Hornet 1? By the time you start taking a serious run at the Pantheons, you've moved past that being an obstacle.

These easy bosses don't increase the challenge, just the duration. They're padding. It's like games that put an unskippable cutscene or a long walk between the checkpoint and the boss. It doesn't increase the difficulty. It's just 100% aggravation.

You could take two-thirds or so of the bosses out of Pantheon of Hallownest without making it meaningfully easier. It'd just be fifteen minutes between attempts, and not the better part of an hour. You'd still need to be good enough to beat all the nailmasters, NKG, Markoth, and PV with enough reliability to do them back-to-back and get to AR, which is the true challenge of Pantheon of Hallownest.

The all-the-bosses rush would need to be available somehow. Maybe just in Godseeker mode, or maybe in a new sideroom in the main game. Honestly, this is the biggest problem with this suggestion - implementing it would take longer.

That's also a valid way to do it

[The Snopingasusual]

Originally posted by Self-rescuing Princess:

First up - I like the idea of optional checkpoints. I have an alternative solution, though. One which I think I actually prefer.

Remove the easy trash bosses from Pantheon of Hallownest. Make it about the same length as the other Pantheons - 10-15 minutes rather than 45 - but just containing the game's most difficult bosses with AR at the end.

If you've beaten Pantheon of Hallownest - how many times did you die to Massive Moss Charger? Or Hornet 1? By the time you start taking a serious run at the Pantheons, you've moved past that being an obstacle.

These easy bosses don't increase the challenge, just the duration. They're padding. It's like games that put an unskippable cutscene or a long walk between the checkpoint and the boss. It doesn't increase the difficulty. It's just 100% aggravation.

You could take two-thirds or so of the bosses out of Pantheon of Hallownest without making it meaningfully easier. It'd just be fifteen minutes between attempts, and not the better part of an hour. You'd still need to be good enough to beat all the nailmasters, NKG, Markoth, and PV with enough reliability to do them back-to-back and get to AR, which is the true challenge of Pantheon of Hallownest.

The all-the-bosses rush would need to be available somehow. Maybe just in Godseeker mode, or maybe in a new sideroom in the main game. Honestly, this is the biggest problem with this suggestion - implementing it would take longer.

Totally agree.

[yoshi gordo]

Before trying 5th for the first time and realising what it was I though it would be:
Mato & Oro - Sisters of battle - Sheo - Winged Nosk - Sly - NKG - PV - Something new
It could be with Zote and Markoth in between even, they are posibly some of the hardest.

[Aeternalis the Abyssal Alchemist]

Originally posted by AylsACM:

Before trying 5th for the first time and realising what it was I though it would be:
Mato & Oro - Sisters of battle - Sheo - Winged Nosk - Sly - NKG - PV - Something new
It could be with Zote and Markoth in between even, they are posibly some of the hardest.

Don't forget Tiso. As much of a joke it is, it is something exclusive to the 5th Pantheon.
Grey Prince would probably need to be in it too, since you don't always need to fight him in the 3rd Pantheon.

[Fluffiest Princess]

Originally posted by AylsACM:

Before trying 5th for the first time and realising what it was I though it would be:
Mato & Oro - Sisters of battle - Sheo - Winged Nosk - Sly - NKG - PV - Something new
It could be with Zote and Markoth in between even, they are posibly some of the hardest.

That's about what I was thinking, plus possibly a buffed Hornet because she's so important to the lore.

[CeliriaRose]

The duration is part of the challenge. That is what a boss rush is. Even if you've gotten to the point where you can consistently beat a boss that doesn't mean you have moved past the challenge of it because an aspect of that is that you need to KEEP consistently beating it. The point of a boss rush isn't that you've mastered this boss so move onto the next, it's that you have to be so consistent that you can beat all those bosses in a row. And if you die to a later boss in the lineup then you have to maintain that consistency to get to it again.

[Fluffiest Princess]

Originally posted by CeliriaRose:

The duration is part of the challenge. That is what a boss rush is. Even if you've gotten to the point where you can consistently beat a boss that doesn't mean you have moved past the challenge of it because an aspect of that is that you need to KEEP consistently beating it. The point of a boss rush isn't that you've mastered this boss so move onto the next, it's that you have to be so consistent that you can beat all those bosses in a row. And if you die to a later boss in the lineup then you have to maintain that consistency to get to it again.

Getting good enough to consistently beat Massive Moss Charger is not a meaningful obstacle compared to NKG or PV. It's just padding. They could replace half the battles in Pantheon 5 with a twenty minute long elevator ride and no-one would find it substantially more difficult because they've already mastered those easy bosses on the previous four pantheons. The only way the trash bosses make the Pantheon harder is making your hands tired.

And did you miss the part where I said the Pantheon of All The Bosses Ever would still be in the game? It just wouldn't be required to do that forty-five-minute slog to get the true ending.

[ZetaStriker]

I love this idea, because I thought the first fourth pantheons were just what I'd want from a boss rush. More of the same is definitely better than checkpoints in a still overly long challenge. I've never been a fan of challenges that out-stay their welcome. It's why I never bothered with levels 7-C and 8-C in Celeste for instance, because they about tripled the length of the C-levels before them.

[TheUncle]

Originally posted by Self-rescuing Princess:

Originally posted by CeliriaRose:

The duration is part of the challenge. That is what a boss rush is. Even if you've gotten to the point where you can consistently beat a boss that doesn't mean you have moved past the challenge of it because an aspect of that is that you need to KEEP consistently beating it. The point of a boss rush isn't that you've mastered this boss so move onto the next, it's that you have to be so consistent that you can beat all those bosses in a row. And if you die to a later boss in the lineup then you have to maintain that consistency to get to it again.

Getting good enough to consistently beat Massive Moss Charger is not a meaningful obstacle compared to NKG or PV. It's just padding. They could replace half the battles in Pantheon 5 with a twenty minute long elevator ride and no-one would find it substantially more difficult because they've already mastered those easy bosses on the previous four pantheons. The only way the trash bosses make the Pantheon harder is making your hands tired.

And did you miss the part where I said the Pantheon of All The Bosses Ever would still be in the game? It just wouldn't be required to do that forty-five-minute slog to get the true ending.

Don't bother with CeliriaRose. They're too stuck up their own ass about the topic to ever relent or care about compromise, the other side, or realizing they can have what they want while other people can be happy too.

[Fluffiest Princess]

Originally posted by Null the Abyssal Alchemist:

Originally posted by AylsACM:

Before trying 5th for the first time and realising what it was I though it would be:
Mato & Oro - Sisters of battle - Sheo - Winged Nosk - Sly - NKG - PV - Something new
It could be with Zote and Markoth in between even, they are posibly some of the hardest.

Don't forget Tiso. As much of a joke it is, it is something exclusive to the 5th Pantheon.
Grey Prince would probably need to be in it too, since you don't always need to fight him in the 3rd Pantheon.

Forgot to mention, the obvious thing is to have Tiso squashed by Zote instead of the Mawlek.

[Groundwater]

I like the idea as long as the bosses get some additional challenge

[CeliriaRose]

Originally posted by VoreanTheKobold:

Originally posted by Self-rescuing Princess:

Getting good enough to consistently beat Massive Moss Charger is not a meaningful obstacle compared to NKG or PV. It's just padding. They could replace half the battles in Pantheon 5 with a twenty minute long elevator ride and no-one would find it substantially more difficult because they've already mastered those easy bosses on the previous four pantheons. The only way the trash bosses make the Pantheon harder is making your hands tired.

And did you miss the part where I said the Pantheon of All The Bosses Ever would still be in the game? It just wouldn't be required to do that forty-five-minute slog to get the true ending.

Don't bother with CeliriaRose. They're too stuck up their own ass about the topic to ever relent or care about compromise, the other side, or realizing they can have what they want while other people can be happy too.

Really? I can have what I want? You mean the game exactly as the devs intended it where people will either suck it up and play the mode as it is supposed to be played if they want the reward or move on and play something that appeals to them rather than demanding the game be dumbed down to fit their whining and demands?

The thing about compromise is nobody gets what they want in compromise. The very point of the idea is that both sides give something up in order to meet common ground in a case where a decision must be made and the two sides disagree. Compromise means neither side is completely happy.

Except in this case compromise isn't necessary to begin with as there is no decision that must be reached to cater to both sides. The devs aren't required to cater to everyone with every little bit of content. The mode was designed as a boss rush and is functioning as intended by the devs. It isn't broken, it doesn't need fixing. Sure it's not going to appeal to everyone but it was never going to and wasn't intended to. It's content made for a specic audiencet. The fact that it doesn't match your specific tastes or work in the manner you demand doesn't mean it should be changed. It just means the mode isn't for you.

[Hexates7]

Originally posted by CeliriaRose:

Really? I can have what I want? You mean the game exactly as the devs intended it where people will either suck it up and play the mode as it is supposed to be played if they want the reward or move on and play something that appeals to them rather than demanding the game be dumbed down to fit their whining and demands?

The thing about compromise is nobody gets what they want in compromise. The very point of the idea is that both sides give something up in order to meet common ground in a case where a decision must be made and the two sides disagree. Compromise means neither side is completely happy.

Except in this case compromise isn't necessary to begin with as there is no decision that must be reached to cater to both sides. The devs aren't required to cater to everyone with every little bit of content. The mode was designed as a boss rush and is functioning as intended by the devs. It isn't broken, it doesn't need fixing. Sure it's not going to appeal to everyone but it was never going to and wasn't intended to. It's content made for a specic audiencet. The fact that it doesn't match your specific tastes or work in the manner you demand doesn't mean it should be changed. It just means the mode isn't for you.

How do YOU know what Team Cherry want and whether they are happy with the reception of this content pack?! It‘s artogant of you to speak for them. If you actually knew the developers, it would be clear to you that they don‘t want this kind of schism in their player base and did not intend to provoke it.

[TheUncle]

Originally posted by CeliriaRose:

Originally posted by VoreanTheKobold:

Don't bother with CeliriaRose. They're too stuck up their own ass about the topic to ever relent or care about compromise, the other side, or realizing they can have what they want while other people can be happy too.

Really? I can have what I want? You mean the game exactly as the devs intended it where people will either suck it up and play the mode as it is supposed to be played if they want the reward or move on and play something that appeals to them rather than demanding the game be dumbed down to fit their whining and demands?

The thing about compromise is nobody gets what they want in compromise. The very point of the idea is that both sides give something up in order to meet common ground in a case where a decision must be made and the two sides disagree. Compromise means neither side is completely happy.

Except in this case compromise isn't necessary to begin with as there is no decision that must be reached to cater to both sides. The devs aren't required to cater to everyone with every little bit of content. The mode was designed as a boss rush and is functioning as intended by the devs. It isn't broken, it doesn't need fixing. Sure it's not going to appeal to everyone but it was never going to and wasn't intended to. It's content made for a specic audiencet. The fact that it doesn't match your specific tastes or work in the manner you demand doesn't mean it should be changed. It just means the mode isn't for you.

Gasp; so basically you're talking for the developers now, and their intentions, and that they want their playerbase to suck it up and 'git gud', and play the mode, and making it more accessible is 'dumbing it down' what nice language you've got there. And oh my, it's whining and demanding to ask for something like checkpoints to lower the punishment of the 40 minute Pantheon runs.

Basically what you're telling me is you're stuck-up, because you think compromise means 'no one is completely happy' and that 'because I'm currently in a place where I'm happy, ♥♥♥♥ everyone else.'

You make me laugh.