Suggestion for making nail arts a lot better

[Tat011]

Having to wait for the regular attack animation to finish before it starts to charge makes it take way too long, even with nailmaster equipped. There are 2 solutions to this:
1)Not having to wait for the anination to finish before it starts to charge, the problem with this is that the pointless slashing is still there and it makes using the nail arts while wall climbing a lot harder since you will likely slash the wall you are supposed to be grabbing.
2) holding the attack button doesn't activate the regular attack but does start charging the nail arts, in order to do the redular attacks one will have to press the button and not hold it. I think this is the best solution

[Groversoup]

having the attack come out on button release instead of press would create a really noticeable input lag, just look at how many people complain about the dash in furi. It's better to have the primary attack be as quick as possible and not sacrifice satisfying gameplay for a secondary moveset to be slightly better

[Tat011]

Originally posted by Groversoup:

having the attack come out on button release instead of press would create a really noticeable input lag, just look at how many people complain about the dash in furi. It's better to have the primary attack be as quick as possible and not sacrifice satisfying gameplay for a secondary moveset to be slightly better

Not really, since for spells and nail arts one has to press 2 buttons in a specific order and the imput lag is nonexistent

[Groversoup]

what I'm saying is having the nail hitbox come out on the button release would increase the input lag of the default attack by 1 frame at the absolute minimum, and in practice a lot more than that.

[Tat011]

the difference is so miniscule they could impelement it now and you wouldn't even notice, besides the devs can always go for option 1 if they decide to change it.

[Groversoup]

I'm actually not entirely sure that scenario 1 isn't already the case, and scenario 2 would make the combat super unsatisfying and frustrating with how fast paced it is.

[Groversoup]

In furi, for example, you dodge when you release the dodge button because you can charge it up to go further, and having to perform a dodge to charge one up would just be stupid. In hollow knight, though, the basic attack is so fast and has such a nonexistant impact on your positioning that there is a negligable effect on nail art charging, and you can already spam nail arts by charging the next one before the animation finishes. If one of them is going to be crippled, I'd prefer it be the one that the entire game isn't based around.

[Tat011]

Originally posted by Groversoup:

I'm actually not entirely sure that scenario 1 isn't already the case, and scenario 2 would make the combat super unsatisfying and frustrating with how fast paced it is.

i'm sorry WHAT? that's like saying "we should remove quickfocus because it would make the combat super unsatisfying and frustrating with how fast paced it is" and yes scenario 1 isn't the case, if you activate the nail arts normally and later activate the arts and skip the attack animation by doing something like getting hit, you will notice the difference, especially with the charm

[Groversoup]

I'm saying the combat is already fast paced and removing frame-1 attack animation would make it sluggish and unsatisfying. Try using quick cast vs focus to cast spells. It isn't a huge difference when you're using infrequent powerful attacks, but if you had to account for the input lag every single time you attacked, it would be awful. It would make nail arts even less appealing than they already are by making the basic nail harder to use.

[Tat011]

Originally posted by Groversoup:

In furi, for example, you dodge when you release the dodge button because you can charge it up to go further, and having to perform a dodge to charge one up would just be stupid.

i don't understand what you just said

Originally posted by Groversoup:

In hollow knight, though, the basic attack is so fast and has such a nonexistant impact on your positioning that there is a negligable effect on nail art charging, and you can already spam nail arts by charging the next one before the animation finishes. If one of them is going to be crippled, I'd prefer it be the one that the entire game isn't based around.

with nailmaster's glory equipped the charge lasts only slightly longer than hiting regularly meaning that as it is now it almost DOUBLES the waiting time, making it useless against bosses and practically any situation exept the coliseum

[Groversoup]

Nail arts are in a bad place but you shouldn't buff them at the expense of the basic attack. Not only would it make combat harder by increasing your latency, it would make pogo-based platforming abysmal.

[Tat011]

Originally posted by Groversoup:

I'm saying the combat is already fast paced and removing frame-1 attack animation would make it sluggish and unsatisfying. Try using quick cast vs focus to cast spells. It isn't a huge difference when you're using infrequent powerful attacks, but if you had to account for the input lag every single time you attacked, it would be awful. It would make nail arts even less appealing than they already are by making the basic nail harder to use.

you are forgetting that games ideally run on 60 frames per second, that means that even if you play on a toaster and your game runs on 20 the extra frame will only make the attack 0.5% slower.

[Groversoup]

Originally posted by Tat011:

you are forgetting that games ideally run on 60 frames per second, that means that even if you play on a toaster and your game runs on 20 the extra frame will only make the attack 0.5% slower.

That's assuming you hold down the attack button for exactly one frame, which isn't going to happen in practice

[Tat011]

Originally posted by Groversoup:

Originally posted by Tat011:

you are forgetting that games ideally run on 60 frames per second, that means that even if you play on a toaster and your game runs on 20 the extra frame will only make the attack 0.5% slower.

That's assuming you hold down the attack button for exactly one frame, which isn't going to happen in practice

let's be generous and say that holding the attack button lasts 10 frames (making the wait 10 times longer) that would still make it last less than one quarter of a second on 60 FPS while the nail arts charge halves from 2 seconds to 1.

[Groversoup]

There's a reason the quick cast button is in the game and there's a reason nailmaster's glory is 1 notch. Nail arts, even spamming them as quickly as possible with nailmaster's glory, do less damage than the base nail being swung for an equal amount of time. They are in the game to do burst damage and as defensive maneuvers. Quick cast is in the game becuase even that 1-10 frame input buffer can be catastrophic if you're using it on an enemy close to attacking you. Nail arts are charged attacks that already have a wait period by definition, and you spam base nail the whole game, sometimes requiring a lot of finesse and tight timing. Adding an input buffer to the base attack would pretty much ruin the combat.

[Tat011]

Originally posted by Groversoup:

There's a reason the quick cast button is in the game and there's a reason nailmaster's glory is 1 notch. Nail arts, even spamming them as quickly as possible with nailmaster's glory, do less damage than the base nail being swung for an equal amount of time.

it doesn't have to be like this, the changes i proposed will make this not the case

Originally posted by Groversoup:

They are in the game to do burst damage and as defensive maneuvers.

but the long cooldown makes it useless in both situations

Originally posted by Groversoup:

Quick cast is in the game becuase even that 1-10 frame input buffer can be catastrophic if you're using it on an enemy close to attacking you.

but this would only aplies to attacking, so unless you use parring as your only way to dodge (parring by the way is completely unreliable and not all enemies can be parried)you shouldn't have a problem, besides monarch wings already has this, when you press the button you will continue to descend for about half a second before you start ascending, this is more than double the wait time of the changed attack

Originally posted by Groversoup:

Adding an input buffer to the base attack would pretty much ruin the combat.

yes... adding less than a quarter of a second to attacking in order to half the wait time of another attack in order to make 3 moves not useless and add more variety to the combat makes the combat completely unusable... seems legit (sarcasm)