Losing GEO is a problem, but not the ONLY one with this game's design!

[Dragon]

I notice a lot of posts lately that rightfully complain about how the game unfairly forces you to lose all your Geo when you die twice.

Although this is a completely legitimate point, I feel like when it is stated like that, it is incomplete.

Because you don't only lose your Geo when you die, but you also lose the time/energy/effort which you used to reach the point in the game world at which you died. This problem is every bit as frustrating, unfair, repetitive, and time-wasting as is its sister-problem of the stolen Geo.

So therefore, I needed to make this thread, lest this other aspect of the problem becomes lost in the controversy about the lost Geo. Even if they fixed the lost Geo problem, then the game would still be just as frustrating, if they don't also & simultaneously fix the other sister-problem which I've just described.

There is a quick & easy solution to both of those problems that the devs could implement easily with barely any work or effort on their parts: add into the game...

a) the ability to manually save whenever you wantand

b) a quicksave button & a quickload button and

c) they could optionally even add an autosave feature that automatically saves the game in the background after a certain interval of time has passed (i.e. every 3 minutes), without the player needing to do anything to make that happen. And they could even let the player set the amount of time after which a new autosave will occur

Doing these simple things would resolve all the controversies discussed in this thread. And it would also have the added benefit of these games no longer alienating average gamers who are not super-hardcore types.

In other words, doing this would be not only good for the players, but also for the devs themselves, as they would make way more sales if they did it. All of that goes for both this game and also the Silksong game too.

[SonicBoomNFA]

They don't need to solve an issue you can easily overcome on your own. There's literally a system in the game where you can trade rancid eggs for your soul back. You can quit the game before you die if you're so scared of losing your soul. Several games use this death mechanic; nothing about it is "unfair" because it was caused by 2 deaths, which is entirely the player's fault; calling it "unfair" isn't legitimate at all. And if people feel "alienated" by it, then they're being overdramatic. Games are made for specific audiences; they don't need to cater it to all players because this is supposed to be a difficult game. Sales don't matter if you care more about producing the game you envisioned; money isn't everything. You claim it's "good for the players", but you're forgetting the fact that many people like risk factors like that.
I understand why people dislike it, but claiming that it's unfair and needs to be changed is silly.

[クズハモン]

You can heal at anytime you want granted you need to attack an enemy to regen soul but there are charms that help with that and make it faster
you have benches and hot springs they refill your health to full
you can learn the ability to create dreamgates and put them in areas you think will likely cost you a death and teleport to said area from the bench or anywhere for that matter

you can also use rancid eggs at Confessor Jiji's place(requires buying a key though) and she will bring your shade back to you if it's in a dangerous area or an area you don't feel like going through

also a save anywhere would defeat the purpose of metroidvania and exploration, the entire concept of the genre. Just play smart and safe and it's really not that hard
I seriously don't see or get what's so hard about Hollow Knight, maybe because I've been playing Metroid and 2D games since I was a child and i'm used to them but it's really not that hard, it's like STALKER, the game gives you what and everything you need to succeed, you just need to play smart

Always heal, always try to have full soul before going into any area along with health, don't play too aggressively if you're close to death, ect
and if you can't do any of that then well partner it might be time for you to find a new game to play as this is just one of thousands of daily hollow knight whine threads about difficulty and no one is forcing you to play it nor does Team Cherry care as they have their audience( a big one at that) that loves these kind of games.

[Gin-chan]

Hahah i wonder how many thousand times have FROMSOFT heard this kind of argument as well over the course of their dark souls series. This game like dark souls caters to a specific audience. If you can't handle the fact that you may lose things or progress on 2nd death you may as well just play a different game.

[piccolo255]

Originally posted by Dragon:

I notice a lot of posts lately that rightfully complain about how the game unfairly forces you to lose all your Geo when you die twice.

Wasn't it like one dude necroing several old threads to vent?

To your other points... let's just say, you should never, ever play Super Mario Bros. :)

[クズハモン]

Originally posted by piccolo255:

Originally posted by Dragon:

I notice a lot of posts lately that rightfully complain about how the game unfairly forces you to lose all your Geo when you die twice.

Wasn't it like one dude necroing several old threads to vent?

To your other points... let's just say, you should never, ever play Super Mario Bros. :)

Or Mega Man/Mega Man X, or Snes donkey kong country, or Metroid, any retro 2D platformer for that matter really.

[HighLanderPony]

OP is afraid of losing a few thousand Geo, meanwhile I'm here with two complete playthroughs, having bought everything I could with a few thousand to spare. It really isn't a big deal. The initial shock happened to me too, it's just overreaction.

I can maybe recall two cases where I needed to try a little harder than just naturally playing to farm some Geo. In 100+ hours.

[4D]

I can understand why you would find it frustrating, or even think it is a design fault. I was upset the first couple times I lost a significant chunk of geo. But after a couple of losses I adapted. And by the time I reached full completion of my playthrough, I had thousands more than I even needed.

Hollow Knight is meant to be difficult... there is an entire genre in gaming these days that is meant to be challenging and punishing, forcing you to adapt. And if you don't want to adapt, that's fine! But it's not the game's fault.

[Dragon]

Originally posted by SonicBoomNFA:

They don't need to solve an issue you can easily overcome on your own. There's literally a system in the game where you can trade rancid eggs for your soul back.

Except that rancid eggs aren't free, right? So you have to waste Geo in order to save Geo. That makes no sense.

And the 'solution' in that statement also does nothing to address the other problem, of losing all your time/energy/effort of having gotten to the point in the world where you died, and then having to grindingly-repeat all of that same gameplay again....which like I said, a manual save/quicksave/quickload system would fix.

[HighLanderPony]

Originally posted by Dragon:

Originally posted by SonicBoomNFA:

They don't need to solve an issue you can easily overcome on your own. There's literally a system in the game where you can trade rancid eggs for your soul back.

Except that rancid eggs aren't free, right? So you have to waste Geo in order to save Geo. That makes no sense.

And the 'solution' in that statement also does nothing to address the other problem, of losing all your time/energy/effort of having gotten to the point in the world where you died, and then having to grindingly-repeat all of that same gameplay again....which like I said, a manual save/quicksave/quickload system would fix.

The first statement shows you've close to no idea what you're on about. You can find eggs for free, no need to spend Geo. One of them is sold to introduce the mechanic, yes. Again, beat the game twice and only used them to try them out, never out of necessity.

Feels like Yoshi's Crafted World is more like your kind of game.

[Krispy]

Originally posted by SonicBoomNFA:

They don't need to solve an issue you can easily overcome on your own. There's literally a system in the game where you can trade rancid eggs for your soul back. You can quit the game before you die if you're so scared of losing your soul. Several games use this death mechanic; nothing about it is "unfair" because it was caused by 2 deaths, which is entirely the player's fault; calling it "unfair" isn't legitimate at all. And if people feel "alienated" by it, then they're being overdramatic. Games are made for specific audiences; they don't need to cater it to all players because this is supposed to be a difficult game. Sales don't matter if you care more about producing the game you envisioned; money isn't everything. You claim it's "good for the players", but you're forgetting the fact that many people like risk factors like that.
I understand why people dislike it, but claiming that it's unfair and needs to be changed is silly.

besides given the amount of money and reviews this game has gotten its pretty obvious this is what people love

[Violet-111]

Originally posted by Dragon:

Because you don't only lose your Geo when you die, but you also lose the time/energy/effort which you used to reach the point in the game world at which you died. This problem is every bit as frustrating, unfair, repetitive, and time-wasting as is its sister-problem of the stolen Geo.

Getting back to your shade is much easier than getting to the location for the first time, since you update your map when you die and you already know the area. It takes 5 minutes max. The only time it's frustrating is if your shade is in a completely different part of the map - this only happened to me once when I entered Resting Grounds and somehow missed the stag, which is completely my fault and not the game's. If you end up far from your shade then you can go to Jiji anyway.

Originally posted by Dragon:

Originally posted by SonicBoomNFA:

They don't need to solve an issue you can easily overcome on your own. There's literally a system in the game where you can trade rancid eggs for your soul back.

Except that rancid eggs aren't free, right? So you have to waste Geo in order to save Geo. That makes no sense.

Rancid eggs only cost 80-100 geo, and you'll probably have some of them on you already.

[クズハモン]

Originally posted by Krispy:

Originally posted by SonicBoomNFA:

They don't need to solve an issue you can easily overcome on your own. There's literally a system in the game where you can trade rancid eggs for your soul back. You can quit the game before you die if you're so scared of losing your soul. Several games use this death mechanic; nothing about it is "unfair" because it was caused by 2 deaths, which is entirely the player's fault; calling it "unfair" isn't legitimate at all. And if people feel "alienated" by it, then they're being overdramatic. Games are made for specific audiences; they don't need to cater it to all players because this is supposed to be a difficult game. Sales don't matter if you care more about producing the game you envisioned; money isn't everything. You claim it's "good for the players", but you're forgetting the fact that many people like risk factors like that.
I understand why people dislike it, but claiming that it's unfair and needs to be changed is silly.

besides given the amount of money and reviews this game has gotten its pretty obvious this is what people love

Exactly, this thread is just the daily 2D newbie whine thread and wanting everything given to them, soon people will want games to play themselves.
as we speak i'm right now playing Hollow Knight again to get the Speedrun 2 achievement

[(Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr]

The only problem I have with the death mechanic is how they have the shade spawn inside boss rooms in certain instances.

[PalmTree]

Originally posted by (Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr:

The only problem I have with the death mechanic is how they have the shade spawn inside boss rooms in certain instances.

I actually started to notice a pattern with this. It only seems to happen with the 'lesser' bosses, like the Vengefly King, Massive Moss Charger, Gruz Mother, etc. Basically if it's a boss that's just a stronger version of a regular enemy, it will probably spawn the Shade in the arena, at least from what I've seen.

[ramonpontes]

It is not unfair. This is how the game is. You should love it or leave it.

You said that losing geo is not the only problem. You will also lose /time/energy/effort. You can decide to NOT go after the lost Geo, and proceed with the game. You only will lose something else you you're going after your shade to recover your Geo. All the exploration you've done will be recorded on map, so that death wasn't for nothing.

Here are some points that makes the game more than fair the way it is:

1 - You have a free healing "magic" from the very beginning of the game. Your magic pool is enough to heal three masks of your HP.

2 - There are no instant killers in this game. Usually when you're travelling, you can find a safe spot to heal yourself.

3 - Big enemies only respawn if you sit in a bench. Lesser enemies respawn when you switch screens. You can basically clear an area ahead of hard enemies, and backtrack one screen to refill yor magic and heal yourself.

4 - You can recognize the environment and see that you're approaching a boss room, before entering it and being locked in. When that happens, if you're not prepared, you can always go back and prepare yourself.

5 - Usually your soul will not be locked on a boss room. But when that happens, it is very unlikely that you will not be able to recover it before the boss battle begins.

6 - There are many ways to prevent the lost of a significant amount of geo:
> Fist, don't keep them with you, spend everything on the shops you encounter on the way.
> Second, there are some relics that you may sell for geo. Don't sell them unless you need the money. You can lose your geo, but you keep the items.
> Third, there is a bank at some point of the game. You can store your geo there, and go back later to collect it.

7 - And finally, this mechanic can benefit you, if you know what you're doing. I used it on a quest, where I had to travel from one point to another without being hit. I didn't sit on any benches on the way. If I was hit, I simply get myself killed, and appeared on a bench next to the begining of the quest again. I recovered my shadow on the way to the destination.