Game getting extremely frustruating towards end-game

[Artek [General]]

While i do love and adore this game, i started noticing that the game (bosses in particular) started becoming more and more frustruating.

My 1st exposure to how BS this game could be was the gaunlet and Fool's Trial or whatever that was.

Then that fallen warrior in deepnest and his flying sword of stupid.

And now... I'm fighting "Lost Kin" and its frustruating as hell.

The sudden increase in diffuclty, frustruation and over-all BS is, from what i can gather, comes from 2 things:
1) Filling the entire screen with projectiles / homing enemies that spawn out of thin air with no warning so you can accidentally dash into one as you try to dodge the REAL boos.
2) The game stoped giving any windows to heal, making the "heal faster" charm nearly mandatory, but i cant give up any of my charms for it (and i think i've reached the limit for charm notches in the entire game so no impovements are happening on that front).

If only dashes had some i-frames in them... That would be awesome.

[arejang]

the shade cloak gives i-frames.

The first few times I play a completely new boss, I don't attack at all until I can dodge all of their attacks most of the time. There's still some BS attacks, but it helps figuring out where to go for the hardest attacks and when I can attack for the easiest ones.

[Bankai9212]

Originally posted by arejang:

the shade cloak gives i-frames.

The first few times I play a completely new boss, I don't attack at all until I can dodge all of their attacks most of the time. There's still some BS attacks, but it helps figuring out where to go for the hardest attacks and when I can attack for the easiest ones.

Temp i-frames some bosses have follow ups and shade cloak has a cool down.

[Fracastador]

Most of the bosses you are describing are optional challenge content. If you find them too frustrating, then exploring more gets you better items which makes them much easier. There is a dash upgrade that does give some i-frames, which is indispensible for the game's more difficult challenges.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Originally posted by Bankai9212:

Temp i-frames

As opposed to all those games that give permanent iframes

I do not believe I've taken on the Trial of the Fool, only the Warrior and the Conqueror since, well, the only real thing I'd get for completing Fool is completion and an achievement. Which I do plan on getting, but that's me. The only stat reward is money, not something specific like the other two Trials.

Lost Kin is indeed hard to fight without specific setups, but... that's also kinda the point of the dream bosses. And there is a setup to make it easier, making it the easiest dream boss and that's all that's needed along with the Dream Warriors to get the Awakened Dream Nail. The even-harder dream bosses like Soul Tyrant and Failed Champion are purely optional after it.

And it was really cool when I got to the point where I was like "I can reliably dodge the Lost Kin's attacks!" It's the kind of feeling I get from Shovel Knight, or Cave Story's Sacred Grounds, or practicing setups in fighting games.

[arejang]

I tried to order my dream bosses according to the difficulty I thought would go from easiest to hardest--failed champ, soul tyrant, lost kin. But I think lost kin was easier than failed champ or soul tyrant. Maybe it's because I overestimated it after clearing the other two bosses. Wasn't an easy fight, but it was a lot easier than I expected.

[Piterros990]

For Lost Kin, get some nail upgrades, Fragile/Unbreakable Strength, Joni's Blessing and you may even be able to tank it. If not, focus down the ghosts.

About Trial of the Fool, I've spent about 1.5 hour in this thing and I'm never coming back to it. This trial gave me headaches, it's so f*cking ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. Some parts are fine, I have to say the no-ground part (first half) is fine, but when it comes to these flies that shoot out diagonally you have to just pray to RNGesus that they won't be flying in sh*tty patterns. It also spawns Winged Fools before you defeat all of the flies, which sometimes might be really annoying. Another bullsh*t part is the last jumpy spider part. It's just full RNG, you can't do anything really. And the boss... if it was like NKG or The Radiance it would be cooler. Not saying the final boss of the trial has to be insanely difficult, just interesting, like the bosses I mentioned before. Even Lost Kin was cooler than God Tamer.

[Bankai9212]

Originally posted by Hiro Protagonest:

Originally posted by Bankai9212:

Temp i-frames

As opposed to all those games that give permanent iframes

I do not believe I've taken on the Trial of the Fool, only the Warrior and the Conqueror since, well, the only real thing I'd get for completing Fool is completion and an achievement. Which I do plan on getting, but that's me. The only stat reward is money, not something specific like the other two Trials.

Lost Kin is indeed hard to fight without specific setups, but... that's also kinda the point of the dream bosses. And there is a setup to make it easier, making it the easiest dream boss and that's all that's needed along with the Dream Warriors to get the Awakened Dream Nail. The even-harder dream bosses like Soul Tyrant and Failed Champion are purely optional after it.

And it was really cool when I got to the point where I was like "I can reliably dodge the Lost Kin's attacks!" It's the kind of feeling I get from Shovel Knight, or Cave Story's Sacred Grounds, or practicing setups in fighting games.

Temp as in the shadow cloak has a cool down. Some bosses almost feel like you need more then once for certain moves.

[Fracastador]

Originally posted by Bankai9212:

Originally posted by Hiro Protagonest:

As opposed to all those games that give permanent iframes

I do not believe I've taken on the Trial of the Fool, only the Warrior and the Conqueror since, well, the only real thing I'd get for completing Fool is completion and an achievement. Which I do plan on getting, but that's me. The only stat reward is money, not something specific like the other two Trials.

Lost Kin is indeed hard to fight without specific setups, but... that's also kinda the point of the dream bosses. And there is a setup to make it easier, making it the easiest dream boss and that's all that's needed along with the Dream Warriors to get the Awakened Dream Nail. The even-harder dream bosses like Soul Tyrant and Failed Champion are purely optional after it.

And it was really cool when I got to the point where I was like "I can reliably dodge the Lost Kin's attacks!" It's the kind of feeling I get from Shovel Knight, or Cave Story's Sacred Grounds, or practicing setups in fighting games.

Temp as in the shadow cloak has a cool down. Some bosses almost feel like you need more then once for certain moves.

You'd need them more than once to fully avoid the move with only I-frames, which isn't what the game designers have in mind. You're supposed to position yourself away from the rest of the move, using the i-frames as a tool to reach those places, rather than as the sole means of avoiding them. There are games like that, but this was not intended to be one of them.

Additionally, I may be misremembering, but unless you're using dashmaster, I think the cooldown for your dash itself and for the shade cloak are very similar.

[Bankai9212]

Originally posted by Fracastador:

Originally posted by Bankai9212:

Temp as in the shadow cloak has a cool down. Some bosses almost feel like you need more then once for certain moves.

You'd need them more than once to fully avoid the move with only I-frames, which isn't what the game designers have in mind. You're supposed to position yourself away from the rest of the move, using the i-frames as a tool to reach those places, rather than as the sole means of avoiding them. There are games like that, but this was not intended to be one of them.

Additionally, I may be misremembering, but unless you're using dashmaster, I think the cooldown for your dash itself and for the shade cloak are very similar.

Nah the cool down is the same even with dash master. Also I get that thing is certain bosses feel as if you need it more then once, until you get the move set down.

[Artek [General]]

Fool's gauntlet is a freakin pit of sadism for the player.
I just had my best run, got to a maweric mini-boss which then got me because I CANT FREAKIN' HEAL IN THERE.
Even with the speed upgrade for healing there is no way you can heal with that thing spewing acid and jumping at you. And i have no idea how much HP it has neither.

Also primal aspid is my source of nightmares. Somehow i CANNOT dodge it for the life of me.
You avoid one burst of acid - you get hit by another, just dash right into it face-first, that's just a rule and not an exception.

I guess i'm not attempting this BS until i nearly finished the game.
Albeit i doubt that it will get easier then too. That place is just... Its a place of nightmares, rage and frustruation unlike any other.

[rene.skroch]

I am getting frustrated too. I am trying since 8 hours (in 4 sessions until now) to beat Radiance.... I get now mostly to the third stage... but it is frustrating always to go through te Hollow Knight fight before... It is only time consuming...

I really.had hard times in that game and needed average of 2-3 hours for almost every boss. The longest was fighting the watcher knights with over 4 hours... but I never felt like giving up...

But this fight.... :-(

[Piterros990]

Originally posted by rene.skroch:

I am getting frustrated too. I am trying since 8 hours (in 4 sessions until now) to beat Radiance.... I get now mostly to the third stage... but it is frustrating always to go through te Hollow Knight fight before... It is only time consuming...

I really.had hard times in that game and needed average of 2-3 hours for almost every boss. The longest was fighting the watcher knights with over 4 hours... but I never felt like giving up...

But this fight.... :-(

I recommend Joni's Blessing and Shaman Stone. For Hollow Knight, just pogo and pogo and you'll quickly deal with him. In Radiance fight, spam Abyss Shriek (if you haven't got it yet, go to the Abyss, in the left bottom corner of it there is a small room, use Howling Wraiths there), since full animation with Shaman Stone deals 120 damage (4x30), and Radiance has 1700 hp, so just by entering with all vessels filled you're eliminating a huge chunk of Radiance's hp. I also recommend to pogo and upward-slash in the second phase, as well as use a lot of Descending Dark (i-frames). The choice of other charms is up to you, you might want Spell Twister, maybe Grubsong, Sharp Shadow could work too, maybe Mark of Pride.

[rene.skroch]

[/quote]
I recommend Joni's Blessing and Shaman Stone. For Hollow Knight, just pogo and pogo and you'll quickly deal with him. In Radiance fight, spam Abyss Shriek (if you haven't got it yet, go to the Abyss, in the left bottom corner of it there is a small room, use Howling Wraiths there), since full animation with Shaman Stone deals 120 damage (4x30), and Radiance has 1700 hp, so just by entering with all vessels filled you're eliminating a huge chunk of Radiance's hp. I also recommend to pogo and upward-slash in the second phase, as well as use a lot of Descending Dark (i-frames). The choice of other charms is up to you, you might want Spell Twister, maybe Grubsong, Sharp Shadow could work too, maybe Mark of Pride. [/quote]


Yeah I'm using since today Shaman Stone, Jonis Blessing and Lifeblood Core... Before I always used the healing build with Quick and Deep Focus...
My problem is my skill... I can't avoid to get hit sometimes... and if I get one hit, I'm master in taking the second one direct after it :-P

I'm also really bad in doing nail pogoing and the descending dark dive I didn't use throughout the whole game :-/

Hollow Knight isn't a problem... I can dodge all his attack except the one where he farts fireballs... I never failed at him and always have my 3 vessels filed up, he's just timeconsuming... and annoying

But I managed half an hour ago already 2 times to enter the 4th phase with the platforming... :-)
but always with only 2HP

How many times I have to hit there with Abyss Shriek?

Happy new year btw... :-)))

[arejang]

It helps with the mental games a bit if you see the hollow knight as the first form of the Radience. This way you're actually fighting the radience from the start all the way to the end (because this is basically the idea anyway).

[Thundercleez]

Yea, Lost Kin was rough. There were a few bosses that felt too RNG heavy due to 1 or 2 completely unpredictable attacks. You've just got to be patient and not over extend yourself, which can be tough since some fights end up being a few minutes long and you want to start rushing.